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Paul
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 13th, 2023, 12:40 pm

From The Spectator in July, any Irish here?:

These are certainly interesting times in Ireland. Like every other European country, there’s a cost of living crisis. Mortgages are going up. Inflation is wiping out savings and the ruinous impact of our strict lockdowns is still killing jobs.

We’ve even spent recent days convulsed in a bizarre national uproar over RTE’s highest paid star being allegedly bunged money ‘off the books’; a scandal so serious that it led to the Director General of RTE being suspended while investigations are carried out.

Yet while these various issues dominate the papers and the airwaves, the really important issue of freedom of expression has been largely ignored.

In recent weeks, the Seanad (Ireland’s Upper House) has been busy ratifying the utterly draconian Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate offences) Bill.

Many of us have looked on with growing horror at the UK’s laws against free speech, which have seen mediocre comedians investigated for making a lame joke, or a Celtic fan having his collar felt by the police because he mocked the late Captain Tom Moore.

But this Bill, which is expected to become enshrined in legislation in September, will make the UK look like a libertarian bastion of freedom of expression.

First mooted by previous Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan three years ago, many observers assumed that when he left office his terrible idea would be simply forgotten. Far from it.

In fact, the current Justice Minister, Helen McEntee, has embraced it with gusto.

Under the Bill, soon to become an Act, it will become a crime to say anything, in person or online, which anybody from a protected category (race, gender religion, sexuality etc.) finds hateful or offensive.

Of course, offence is in the eye of the beholder and the fact that there is no actual definition of what ‘hate’ actually is has not deterred the current Justice Minister from blithely dismissing any objections or criticisms by saying that, apparently, ‘we all have an understanding of what hatred means.’

The new law won’t just prosecute people who go online and say stupid things on Twitter (we’re going to have a build a lot more prisons when that particular piece of legislation comes into force). The Gardai will soon have the right to search your laptop or phone for anything that may be deemed ‘offensive or hateful’. That includes books you may have downloaded on your Kindle. So, for example, if you have a copy of something like The Turner Diaries or Mein Kampf on your phone or laptop, you are now looking at a potential sentence of five years in jail.

It is, to use a technical term, completely bonkers.

So we have a justice minister ushering in frighteningly authoritarian restrictions on freedom of expression and railing against ‘hatred’ while being unable to actually define what hatred is, and an already overworked, understaffed and demoralised police force who will shortly be forced to round up people who have expressed an opinion that someone else didn’t like.

So why is the government taking such a hard line on this vexed issue?

Well, in Ireland, our political leaders simply like telling us what to do, and many citizens are quite comfortable with that arrangement.

Perhaps it’s part of our colonial history. But even when the Republic of Ireland achieved independence, it quickly swapped English overlords for the belt of the crozier and rule from the Vatican. Then after half a century of servitude under the bishops, we became more liberal and decided to serve the EU instead.

Indeed, it was rather interesting to see one university lecturer of social policy come out and demand the Bill be enacted immediately because otherwise we will be ‘laggards in Europe on this issue’.

And that’s the real fear of many in what passes for the Irish intellectual elite – a paralysing fear that we aren’t as eager as our European masters to stamp down on mean things being said on the internet.

In reality what this means is that Irish pro-life groups can expect calls from the cops when they say that life begins at conception. It means that feminists who assert that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and who believe in biological reality can expect criminal prosecution, with jail and unlimited fines lurking over their shoulders.

Frankly, this is both a crank’s charter and a heckler’s veto.

The effect on free speech in this country will be so chilling that many people will simply be afraid to say or write anything that may cause an activist mob to descend on them and demand the state takes action.

It’s bad law with bad intentions and will have terrible consequences for Irish democracy and freedom.
 
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Marsden
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 13th, 2023, 4:41 pm

Never trust secondary sources.

Here is what seems to be the significant text of the bill:
... a person shall be guilty of an offence under this section if —
(a) the person —
    (i) communicates material to the public or a section of the public, or
    (ii) behaves in a public place in a manner,
that is likely to incite violence or hatred against a person or a group of persons on account of their protected characteristics or any of those characteristics, and
(b) the person does so with intent to incite violence or hatred against such a person or group of persons on account of those characteristics or any of those characteristics or being reckless as to whether such violence or hatred is thereby incited.
Protected characteristics are: race, color, nationality, religion, national or ethnic origin, descent, gender, sex characteristics, sexual orientation, or disability.

There are other sections about things like preparing or collecting material with the intent of it being used as described above and about details, but the above seems to be the gist of the bill.

So to review some characterizations from Paul's transcription of the Spectator article:
Under the Bill, soon to become an Act, it will become a crime to say anything, in person or online, which anybody from a protected category (race, gender religion, sexuality etc.) finds hateful or offensive.
Doesn't seem to be true. Has to be done with the intent of inciting violence or hatred.
So, for example, if you have a copy of something like The Turner Diaries or Mein Kampf on your phone or laptop, you are now looking at a potential sentence of five years in jail.
No. Only if you have them with the intent to have them distributed with the intent of inciting violence or hatred.
In reality what this means is that Irish pro-life groups can expect calls from the cops when they say that life begins at conception.
? Maybe in a very particular context?
It means that feminists who assert that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and who believe in biological reality can expect criminal prosecution, with jail and unlimited fines lurking over their shoulders.
If they do it with the intent of marginalizing or demeaning transexuals, potentially yes. Is that wrong?

In America, we have the legal notion that "fighting words" are not protected free speech. This was first recognized in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), where the unprotected "fighting words" were apparently "damned racketeer" and "damned Fascist" (? different times?). "Fighting words" were defined in the ruling as words or statements that "by their very utterance, inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace," and the ruling immediately noted, "It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality." ("Morality" probably included because the ruling also noted that "lewd and obscene" speech is not protected. Different times.) Note that none of this was based on "protected characteristics," and I don't think it was ever argued that Chaplinsky intended to provoke his target to violence, only to insult him.

So this original standard was A LOT more restrictive of speech than any standard we tolerate in American, at least. America in 1942 was an awfully fucked up place. I think most "hate crime" restrictions on speech do something like the Irish bill, and only restrict provocations based on "protected characteristics."

I believe pretty strongly in a right to be left alone. If you're minding your own business, in general no one else should trouble you. And I think that's the intent of "hate crime" laws. They can be abused, sure, but on the whole they are good: if you are part of a historically or socially marginalized group, is it not wrong for anyone to remind your of your marginalization and to reinforce it? Criminalizing such behavior is maybe heavy handed ... but also some of it probably should be criminalized. And maybe less egregious behavior should be recognized as a violation subject to a fine.
 
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Alan
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 14th, 2023, 3:27 pm

Always a clear thinker, Heather Mac Donald on the Rubiales affair: 
A Kiss is Just a Kiss:  
The uproar over a fleeting outburst of uninhibited joy is ludicrous
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 14th, 2023, 7:55 pm

Always a clear thinker, Heather Mac Donald on the Rubiales affair: 
A Kiss is Just a Kiss:  
The uproar over a fleeting outburst of uninhibited joy is ludicrous
However, did she see his testimonials?
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 14th, 2023, 7:59 pm

.
Last edited by Cuchulainn on September 14th, 2023, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 14th, 2023, 8:02 pm

Long after an American or a Brit would have caved, Rubiales stood up for a world that is all but gone.

Nostalgia.
Some even want Franco and bull-fighting back.
 
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Paul
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 15th, 2023, 6:28 am

@M, I struggle to believe that hitherto the Irish, a charming and eloquent people, have been allowed to share hateful messages online totally unconstrained.

I give you permission to drop the boldface emphasis, before we start placing bets on how long you can keep it up! I’m pretty sure you have better things to do!
 
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Marsden
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 15th, 2023, 1:09 pm

@M, I struggle to believe that hitherto the Irish, a charming and eloquent people, have been allowed to share hateful messages online totally unconstrained.
You are correct: https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/198 ... print.html

At a quick look, I'd say that law should be replaced just for the purpose of improving the wording. Maybe it's better in the original Gaelic.

But then, isn't the Spectator article awfully heavy-handed for complaining about a re-codification of existing law -- ? I guess the new penalties are harsher, but I accept that the Irish people will be better able to decide their own needs than I am.

I give you permission to drop the boldface emphasis, before we start placing bets on how long you can keep it up! I’m pretty sure you have better things to do!
What? First you denigrate peanut butter and banjo music, and now you belittle my expression of national identity -- ? There ought to be a law!
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 15th, 2023, 8:01 pm

@M, I struggle to believe that hitherto the Irish, a charming and eloquent people, have been allowed to share hateful messages online totally unconstrained.
You are correct: https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/198 ... print.html

At a quick look, I'd say that law should be replaced just for the purpose of improving the wording. Maybe it's better in the original Gaelic.

But then, isn't the Spectator article awfully heavy-handed for complaining about a re-codification of existing law -- ? I guess the new penalties are harsher, but I accept that the Irish people will be better able to decide their own needs than I am.

I give you permission to drop the boldface emphasis, before we start placing bets on how long you can keep it up! I’m pretty sure you have better things to do!
What? First you denigrate peanut butter and banjo music, and now you belittle my expression of national identity -- ? There ought to be a law!
Did Paul distinguish between a 4 string or 5 string banjo?
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 16th, 2023, 8:58 am

From The Spectator in July, any Irish here?:

These are certainly interesting times in Ireland. Like every other European country, there’s a cost of living crisis. Mortgages are going up. Inflation is wiping out savings and the ruinous impact of our strict lockdowns is still killing jobs.  

We’ve even spent recent days convulsed in a bizarre national uproar over RTE’s highest paid star being allegedly bunged money ‘off the books’; a scandal so serious that it led to the Director General of RTE being suspended while investigations are carried out.

Yet while these various issues dominate the papers and the airwaves, the really important issue of freedom of expression has been largely ignored.

In recent weeks, the Seanad (Ireland’s Upper House) has been busy ratifying the utterly draconian Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate offences) Bill.

Many of us have looked on with growing horror at the UK’s laws against free speech, which have seen mediocre comedians investigated for making a lame joke, or a Celtic fan having his collar felt by the police because he mocked the late Captain Tom Moore.

But this Bill, which is expected to become enshrined in legislation in September, will make the UK look like a libertarian bastion of freedom of expression.

First mooted by previous Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan three years ago, many observers assumed that when he left office his terrible idea would be simply forgotten. Far from it.

In fact, the current Justice Minister, Helen McEntee, has embraced it with gusto.

Under the Bill, soon to become an Act, it will become a crime to say anything, in person or online, which anybody from a protected category (race, gender religion, sexuality etc.) finds hateful or offensive.

Of course, offence is in the eye of the beholder and the fact that there is no actual definition of what ‘hate’ actually is has not deterred the current Justice Minister from blithely dismissing any objections or criticisms by saying that, apparently, ‘we all have an understanding of what hatred means.’

The new law won’t just prosecute people who go online and say stupid things on Twitter (we’re going to have a build a lot more prisons when that particular piece of legislation comes into force). The Gardai will soon have the right to search your laptop or phone for anything that may be deemed ‘offensive or hateful’. That includes books you may have downloaded on your Kindle. So, for example, if you have a copy of something like The Turner Diaries or Mein Kampf on your phone or laptop, you are now looking at a potential sentence of five years in jail.

It is, to use a technical term, completely bonkers.

So we have a justice minister ushering in frighteningly authoritarian restrictions on freedom of expression and railing against ‘hatred’ while being unable to actually define what hatred is, and an already overworked, understaffed and demoralised police force who will shortly be forced to round up people who have expressed an opinion that someone else didn’t like.

So why is the government taking such a hard line on this vexed issue?

Well, in Ireland, our political leaders simply like telling us what to do, and many citizens are quite comfortable with that arrangement.

Perhaps it’s part of our colonial history. But even when the Republic of Ireland achieved independence, it quickly swapped English overlords for the belt of the crozier and rule from the Vatican. Then after half a century of servitude under the bishops, we became more liberal and decided to serve the EU instead.

Indeed, it was rather interesting to see one university lecturer of social policy come out and demand the Bill be enacted immediately because otherwise we will be ‘laggards in Europe on this issue’.

And that’s the real fear of many in what passes for the Irish intellectual elite – a paralysing fear that we aren’t as eager as our European masters to stamp down on mean things being said on the internet.

In reality what this means is that Irish pro-life groups can expect calls from the cops when they say that life begins at conception. It means that feminists who assert that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and who believe in biological reality can expect criminal prosecution, with jail and unlimited fines lurking over their shoulders.

Frankly, this is both a crank’s charter and a heckler’s veto.

The effect on free speech in this country will be so chilling that many people will simply be afraid to say or write anything that may cause an activist mob to descend on them and demand the state takes action.

It’s bad law with bad intentions and will have terrible consequences for Irish democracy and freedom.
Looks like something that Finton O'Toole would write..

It’s bad law with bad intentions and will have terrible consequences for Irish democracy and freedom.

Who cares? Ulysses and the Graduate are no longer on the banned list.

Defamation is a hot topic.

https://www.traceysolicitors.ie/en/know ... efamation/
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 16th, 2023, 9:14 am

@M, I struggle to believe that hitherto the Irish, a charming and eloquent people, have been allowed to share hateful messages online totally unconstrained.

And it doesn't help when our role models fall from grace.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 19th, 2023, 1:39 pm

Protester who held sign outside London climate trial prosecuted
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... prosecuted
 
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Paul
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 19th, 2023, 2:03 pm

An interesting story you've found there, Cuch!

Some people are requesting that they too be charged with contempt. There's a petition here https://www.change.org/p/please-charge- ... topic_page with 157 signatures in one month. This could be the solution to traffic congestion in London!
 
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Marsden
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 19th, 2023, 2:56 pm

The arrest seems to be related to bringing up the option of what we call "jury nullification" in America; I'm not sure the UK has a similar policy -- although it seems from the article like it does -- or what they call it if they do.

"Jury nullification" is basically a jury making a ruling on the guilt or innocence of a defendant against the fairly clear determination of the law. So -- I'm guessing here -- in the trial that is being protested, the defendants are charged with some sort of public disorder stemming from their own protest about climate policy, and their defense has been cautioned against even mentioning what they were protesting about in the trial ... which raises its own issues.

I think in America, the policy about jury nullification is that the legal representation in the trial cannot argue for or even suggest it; they have to base their arguments strictly on the law as written. And this might be why the defense has been forbidden from mentioning climate change, etc.

As to holding people outside of the court to abstain from pointing to jury nullification ... ? Where does the authority of a court to administer justice under law end and freedom of speech begin -- ?

I wonder if the meta-protesters would be cited if instead of directly suggesting jury nullification they just protested that whatever law the original protesters violated was a bad law because it silences people from making known serious policy issues.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

September 21st, 2023, 9:26 am

Texas teacher fired for showing Anne Frank graphic novel to eighth-graders
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... k-book-ban