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katastrofa
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

March 12th, 2023, 11:39 am

I think the BBC should arrange a tour of Auschwitz for Lineker.
People of Bucha or Khan Shaykhun fled from the same (death).
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

March 12th, 2023, 12:24 pm

I do hope that the FSU get involved in the Lineker affair.
An honest broker. Free speech and al' that.
 
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Alan
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 2:52 pm

Jordan Peterson is a Canadian licensed psychologist (non-practicing nowadays), 
and his Canada governing board is set on a path to remove his license because they don’t like his “speech”.

Anyway, he recently got an adverse court decision related to that (decision text is at the link) and discusses it in the linked podcast with his daughter.

Youtube link with court decision
 
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Gamal
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 2:56 pm

Who is going to train Jordan Peterson? May I make an offer?
 
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Alan
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 2:58 pm

Go for it.
 
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Paul
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 4:10 pm

I would have thought that attending re-education classes would be a great opportunity for him. He might learn something, find out he's wrong, it might confirm his beliefs, it will be great material for books and podcasts, and I bet they put on a great lunch of kale and tofu.

Apparently the driving awareness programme you attend in the UK is quite eye opening, and do change people's behaviour. Never been required to attend myself. 

On the other hand, group things that I have attended have been eye opening in a different way, showing me that people are even more hopeless than I'd originally thought. 
 
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Marsden
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 4:52 pm

Don't know much about Jordan Peterson; would like to keep it that way.

But here are the actions named in the complaint:

[9] Between January and June 2022, the College received numerous reports about Dr. Peterson's conduct on social media and in his public appearances. The reports again raised concerns about Dr. Peterson's professionalism, including whether his tweets complied with the College's Standards of Professional Conduct. The tweets and statements included the following:
(a) A tweet on January 2, 2022, in which Dr. Peterson responded to an individual who expressed concern about overpopulation by stating: "You're free to leave at any point."
Um ... so isn't someone complaining about his professional organization's requirements also free to leave at any point -- ? Apparently Peterson sees some value in identifying himself as a "clinical psychologist" in spite of not having practiced in some time. If he's maligning his professional organization ... what exactly is the value to him of identifying himself with it -- ?

(b) Various comments Dr. Peterson made on a January 25, 2022, appearance on the podcast, "The Joe Rogan Experience". Dr. Peterson is identified as a clinical psychologist and spoke about a “vindictive” client whose complaint about him was a “pack of lies.” Speaking about air pollution and child deaths, Dr. Peterson said: “it’s just poor children, and the world has too many people on it anyways.”
It really is unprofessional to air grievances with a client publicly. A professional is an expert who uses his expertise to promote someone else's interests, usually for a fee. You are not promoting your client's interests when you lambaste him publicly; if you are forced into legal action against a client, you reveal no more than what you need to in your legal pleadings, and only in the venues where you need to reveal.

I suspect there's some significant missing context from the last part, but, yeah, I tend to think that almost any professional organization would draw the line in the conduct of members this side of approving of killing children.

(c) A tweet on February 7, 2022, in which Dr. Peterson referred to Gerald Butts as a "prik".
?

(d) A tweet on February 19, 2022, in which Dr. Peterson commented that Catherine McKenney, an Ottawa City Councillor who uses they/them pronouns, was an "appalling self-righteous moralizing thing".
I'm guessing that the "appalling self-righteous moralizing thing" is insisting on they/them pronouns; is there no writing standard for Canadian courts?

I guess I'm of the opinion that any clinical psychologist making such a statement about any non-harmful behavior reflects very poorly on the profession.

(e) In response to a tweet about actor Elliot Page being “proud” to introduce a trans character on a TV show, Dr. Peterson tweeted on June 22, 2022: "Remember when pride was a sin? And Ellen Page just had her breasts removed by a criminal physician."
So here we have a clinical psychologist invoking religion and then giving a legal opinion ... hmm.

(f) A further complaint about Dr. Peterson's January 2, 2022 tweet, in which Dr. Peterson responded to an individual who expressed concern about overpopulation by stating: "You're free to leave at any point." The further complaint provided a link to a 2018 GQ interview in which Dr. Peterson made a similar comment about suicide.
?



(g) Dr. Peterson's tweet posted in May 2022, in which he commented on a Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition cover with a plus-sized model, tweeting: "Sorry. Not Beautiful. And no amount of authoritarian tolerance is going to change that."
I remember when beauty was said to be in the eye of the beholder ...

I think Peterson loses in his complaint all the way around.
He seems to have shifted professions to being a blow-hard; maybe he should look into what organizations exist for that.
 
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Gamal
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 6:12 pm

A tweet on January 2, 2022, in which Dr. Peterson responded to an individual who expressed concern about overpopulation by stating: "You're free to leave at any point."
I love this guy! I myself usually say: After you.
 
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Paul
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 7:08 pm

@Marsden - 

Most of that seems to be covered by free speech. 

Complaining about your professional organization is fine if it's a whistleblower thing.

You shouldn't say anything covered by confidentiality but there are subtleties here I know nothing about: is the client identifiable, has the client gone public with the complaint, is it public knowledge, is the client alive,...
 
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Marsden
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 9:26 pm

If a physician was on social media telling people to drink quantities of bleach that likely would harm or kill them, would a medical professional organization be wrong to sanction or even expel that physician? Or is that a matter of free speech?

Psychology is less cut-and-dried as a science than medicine, but they are both, in their clinical practice, aimed at helping people. Who is being helped by Peterson saying that insisting on pronouns that don't agree with whatever society or biology might decree your sex to be -- something that a lot of people do -- is an "appalling self-righteous moralizing thing?" If Peterson wants to claim that he she's somehow helping people with that, I'd be happy to kick him her in the nuts ovaries repeatedly to "help" him her. Same with fat shaming.

The College of Psychologists is just fucking right to call the asshole out. If anything, they're going to lightly on him her.

None of the complaints against Peterson are about him complaining about his professional organization. Really, if you have a serious difference of opinion about standards with your professional organization, it's almost your obligation to complain and criticize. But, complain and criticize primarily within the organization, and not publicly insult laypeople contrary to what your organization deems appropriate.

Peterson has said, "I think I've done demonstrably more than any psychologist has ever produced to increase the prestige and trust of the practice of psychology around the world." If he believes that, (a) he's due for a psychological evaluation himownself, and (b) then what the hell does he need the College for -- ?

His relationship with the College is voluntary on both sides. If he wants to say things that the College says he shouldn't, he's free to resign. And if he goes ahead and defies what the College tells him he must do, why shouldn't it be free to expel him? Since he's so great, he can just offer nondescript "therapy" of his own idiosyncratic design, and just refrain from calling it anything related to "psychology," if he wants to claim (he doesn't) that his livelihood would be impacted by being prevented from practicing clinical psychology due to being expelled from the College.

Maybe he says some clever things, but from where I sit, he's just an asshole who sometimes passes himself off as having profound insight. A tar-baby for weak intellects; sorry Gamal.
 
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Gamal
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 9:52 pm

Apology accepted. The question remains: who is going to organise that training for Jordan Peterson and why not me?
 
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Marsden
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 28th, 2023, 10:30 pm

Well, again I'm available to kick her repeatedly in the ovaries.
 
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Paul
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 29th, 2023, 3:16 am

Psychology is less cut-and-dried as a science than medicine, but they are both, in their clinical practice, aimed at helping people. Who is being helped by Peterson saying that insisting on pronouns that don't agree with whatever society or biology might decree your sex to be -- something that a lot of people do -- is an "appalling self-righteous moralizing thing?" If Peterson wants to claim that he she's somehow helping people with that, I'd be happy to kick him her in the nuts ovaries repeatedly to "help" him her. Same with fat shaming.
I think we are going to have to disagree on this! Talking of nuts, if 99.999% of psychologists are encouraging children to have those nuts chopped off I can see how the  0.001% might get quite vocal in opposition. But only if they actually care about people, of course.
 
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Gamal
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 29th, 2023, 6:39 am

Fat shaming actually helps people. Obesity is a disease even to die from and in quite many cases you can manage it yourself. But if you are proud of your disease, you will not fight it. And you will die.
 
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Marsden
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Re: FSU, Toby Young, Eugenics & Wilmott.com

August 29th, 2023, 11:45 am

Paul, maybe you've bought a little bit into the most alarmist notions about psychologists' attitudes toward gender dysmorphism. Yes, I know you were exaggerating, but it would probably still be exaggerating to suggest that x% of psychologists thought sex change surgery should be encouraged for children, where x% is an amount just greater than the universal constant of the proportion of completely bat-shit crazy people in any group.

Gamal, I'm thinking I should start Peterson shaming you. To help, of course. ;-)

To begin with, here are two of Peterson's "12 Rules for Life" that apparently he doesn't really believe in:
6. "Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world."
9. "Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't."