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Alan
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 19th, 2023, 3:40 pm

B; reasonable collar; appropriate role for government rather than being left to consumer choice, but I think the science is not quite right; I don't believe that governments have rights at all, but I do believe that they properly have the authority to regulate and even ban things that impinge upon the rights of people ... like the right to a livable planet.

Now back to you, and right now I think the score is 4-0 in my favor for you rather than me having an authoritarian mindset. I'll leave it to you to work out why.

Wow. You took the obviously authoritarian-leaning answer to each question and give yourself 4-0. This either reflects (A) what people on the left call disingenuous or (B) an absence of self-awareness. I'm going to go with both and give you -4 on the Authoritarian scale.

I'll do some of your questions later. 
 
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Alan
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 12:58 pm

Q5. Yes 
Q6. b is a perpetual problem; let ChatGPT draw the boundaries! ('a' is a feature, not a bug!)
Q7. I get a chuckle out of that movie scene. If it bothers you so much, you can be the Judge and Justice Alito can be Vinny.
Q8. I already answered that. I think you are mischaracterizing Alito's intent.
Q9. I actually did look up Article III and responded accordingly. You just didn't like my answer.
Q10. Of the two elections, I voted for him once. I would prefer almost any conservative but Trump in 2024, as he went over the edge after Nov 2020.   
 
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Alan
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 1:59 pm

Speaking of 2024, I listened to and enjoyed this one last night: JBP interviewing Chris Christie. 
Long interviews are so much better than debates! 
 
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Paul
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 3:27 pm

Can you both do woke questionnaires next? This is such fun!
 
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Marsden
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 6:56 pm

Here's the entire Article III, Section 2, Paragraph 2:

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
The entire Constitution is obviously available easily if you think it makes a difference.

Here is the relevant part of your comment:

I believe that when Alito mentions "regulate the Supreme Court", he is talking about the imposition of ethics and recusal rules, since that was being discussed in Congress. Your Article III quote has to do with a completely different subject: the Court's "appellate jurisdiction" -- the issue of what types of cases can begin in the Court and when they need to originate in lower courts. We both agree that Alito understands that topic. Those are two different subjects.
Enough said.

Nice that you actually deigned to answer some questions, though.

I don't really get your earlier comment, though:

Wow. You took the obviously authoritarian-leaning answer to each question and give yourself 4-0. This either reflects (A) what people on the left call disingenuous or (B) an absence of self-awareness. I'm going to go with both and give you -4 on the Authoritarian scale.
So, you choose some questions that you're sure will lead me to give "the obviously (sic) authoritarian-leaning answer to each," and I answer them honestly, and you think ... something. It's kind of centemptuous of you -- authoritarian, even -- to ask questions based on what you expect the answers to be. Intellectually lazy, too. Back in the old days, we liked to ask questions to get information; I really didn't know how you'd answer my questions.

But all of your questions belie something about you. You note closing beaches, arresting a violator of the beach closings, a phase out over more than ten years of internal combustion vehicles, and the question of whether the government should have the authority to ban appliances that use natural gas as examples of authoritarianism.

Which is true, in its way.

But it seems you would want to eliminate the lower case authoritarianism of the government using the best information available to protect public health and the environment -- both of which impact individual rights, I hope even you agree -- through the use of upper case AUTHORITARIANISM of imposing your ideological position that the government should never make any judgement on matters of science (in particular), but instead should leave everyone to make their own decisions about it.

So in your world, we would probably still have lead in gasoline, thalidomide would never have been restricted from sale in the US, coal-burning factories would be free to spew as much sulfur and particulates into the air as they want, ozone-depleting chemicals in aerosol sprays would be fine, raw sewage and mercury could be dumped into waterways with impunity, etc. Taken to the absurd, a defense against a murder accusation could be that you didn't believe cyanide is actually poisonous, and because the government is required to be agnostic on the matter -- ? (But now you have been convinced by the death of your spouse that cyanide really is poisonous, so next time you'll use arsenic you'll never add it to someone's food or drink again.)

Is that about right?
 
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Marsden
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 6:58 pm

Can you both do woke questionnaires next? This is such fun!
I believe Gamal is the expert on 'woke.'
 
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Alan
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 7:33 pm

I had an inclination on how you would answer Q1 and Q3. On Q2 and Q4, I didn't know. If you'd said "arresting a lone paddle boarder goes too far", or "banning gas stove tops is ridiculous", I would have thought "OK, Marsden is a liberal, not a progressive". But I could be wrong about that. How do you self-identify?

I have a theory on why each side sees the other as authoritarian. If there's a policy you like, you think, "OK, that's just good government". If you don't like it, you think "Boo, that is a totalitarian cramdown".  
 
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Marsden
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 9:19 pm

I wondered if you put too much weight on the 'lone' part of the paddle boarder, given that he obviously wasn't violating any standard of social distancing.

But if you let one person violate a rule imposed to limit close social interaction, why shouldn't anyone think that the exception should be made for them rather than forever first violated the rule? And then you have no rule.

Ideally, there would be a system whereby X people would be allowed on the beach, such that they didn't significantly risk spreading the plague, with some system for deciding who those people should be. But that would take some planning and implementation, and everyone was largely caught flat-footed when the plague hit.

Also, a lot of the restrictions were, looking back with much better information, more severe than they needed to be. But at the time, the information we were working with was mass carnage in Italy and overwhelmed hospitals in New York City. Things turned out to be less bad than what was prepared for, but it could have gone the other way.

I think banning gas appliances right now is ridiculous, but phasing them out pretty quickly should be in the works.

I focus more on the process of policies being adopted: if policy makers put more weight on one aspect of a problem than I think is warranted, but generally gave fair hearing to different viewpoints and especially different experts, I can live with that. Really, I don't want to have to know enough about almost anything to think that my opinion on it should be taken seriously.

But where the American government is most remiss in giving fair hearing to different viewpoints and different experts is in matters where moneyed interests take a position. So our tax policies are stupid, our healthcare system sucks, we are stupid about the environment, etc., etc., etc.

Yes, trans activists are annoying, but they're not even the trees that keep us from seeing the forest of real problems; they're more like twigs or leaves.
 
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Gamal
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 9:29 pm

Agrumentum ad personam? Thank you very much, Marsden. Schopenhauer says that using this kind of argument shows the highest level of desperation, you can't defeat the statement and have to attack the person. Try harder, it's not as obvious as you think, I could find some counter arguments.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Gamal, when I didn't accord sufficient respect to the nature of your complaint, which I believe was that people are being harassed and canceled for ... failing to show sufficient respect to the complaints of others.
What about you, Marsden? Do you show sufficient respect to the complaints of others?
 
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Marsden
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 20th, 2023, 11:11 pm

I was hoping you'd be able to distance yourself enough from being the target of my "show me on the doll" comment that you'd be able to appreciate that it was pretty funny.
 
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Paul
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 21st, 2023, 5:39 am

A) Doll joke was funny.

B) No arrest. If necessary just wait for him to land, no need to endanger life chasing him around. (In Hawai'i we were allowed in the ocean, but not on the beach. Sadly my pole jumping days are over.)

C) Once you accept that compulsory seatbelts is a good idea lots of other things follow.
 
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Marsden
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 21st, 2023, 8:35 am

A) Thank you, Paul. Try the veal and remember to tip your waiter.
B) From the video Alan posted: "This paddle boarder was arrested after refusing to get out of the water." I assume that if the dickhead had just gotten out of the water when told to do so because the beach was closed, he would have gotten a warning or -- worst case -- a fine and been sent on his way. But dickheads do dickhead things, and he was arrested (I assume) for failure to obey a lawful order rather than for violating the beach closure.
 
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Alan
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 21st, 2023, 2:30 pm

I go regularly to a small uncrowded beach in Newport Beach. They closed it briefly during the lockdowns: police tape and barriers at the top of some stairs. I went anyway, as closing this beach was absurd. But, if a cop had told me to leave I would have. No one did; there were about 8 people enjoying this beach.

There was a fair amount of push-back from law enforcement and local governments over Newsom's lockdown rules. Both LA and Orange County Sheriffs said their departments wouldn't enforce his indoor mask mandates.   From a news story at the time "The Newport Beach City Council on Saturday voted to affirm its support for a lawsuit filed by Huntington Beach, Dana Point and business owners seeking to reopen Orange County beaches after a shutdown order was issued by Gov. Gavin Newsom".

If you look up "authoritarian left" in the dictionary, you find a picture of Gov. Newsom. 
 
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Alan
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 21st, 2023, 2:52 pm

Back in the day:
 
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Marsden
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Re: Random Republican WINGNUTS (or RRWs as they are affectionately known as)

September 22nd, 2023, 3:52 pm

Q6. ... ('a' is a feature, not a bug!)
Q6. Which of the following would you consider to be a grievous enough violation of the democratic process to impair the determination of the consent of the governed?
a. Rigging the Senate to give states with small populations the same representation as states with large populations.
Just curious, Alan: are you aware of the history of packing the Senate by admitting underpopulated states? The most egregious period was 1889-1890, when North and South Dakota (... after splitting the Dakota Territory in two), Montana, Washington, Idaho, and Wyoming -- all very sparsely populated at the time, and all but Washington still sparsely populated) were all admitted within nine months ... although Nevada had been admitted in 1864 with almost no population at all.

All of this was done pretty blatantly by Republican-controlled Congress in order to perpetuate Republican control; plainly anti-democratic.