QuoteOriginally posted by: patch22for me their is absolutely no doubt that god exists as a creator - of wealth for the church and of other organisations who have learned to exploit the notion for their ends.much like mickey mouse was a creator - for walt disney.Hehe... best post of the day.

No Mike, your posts are the best of the day. Your mommy loves you. You're smart. You went to Harvard. You're like Mickey Mouse... wait, that's not going to come out right...

QuoteOriginally posted by: reza- the question is not whether God is on our side, the question is whether we are on God's sideAbraham LincolnNah. The question is - does God have a side?

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenQuoteOriginally posted by: VMarsden, do you mean you think it is irrelevant whether there is a creator or not.... So there is no consequence either way ?Oh, there might be a consequence. But why should I care? If God is the Great Bully in the sky, who will punish me if I don't do what he wants, then screw him; I'll take my "punishment" honorably rather than play his stupid game. If God is a being of reason and goodwill, then he should take no affront at my efforts at reason and goodwill without kowtowing to the many and contradictory expressions of his advice.So what about you, V? Are you religious only for utilitarian reasons? If God told you to sacrifice your son to him, would you do it?Marsden, I am glad to see you believe in a creator. It is possible to live without divine guidance, however it is rational that a creator would know what is better for his creation than the created. There is no logic in saying you can outwit the creator.The point of divine guidance is to reach your potential. It is like eg. operating a video camera without a manual. you may be able to use it but not to its full capability. Furthermore, one should ponder on the fact that the creator is original in everything that he creates. As opposed to the created who take inspiration from what is around them. eg. the camera from the eye.. the helicopter from the dragonfly, an artist from what is around him. In answer to your question of sacrifice.. If given such a wonderful opportunity, I would submit completely to God's will ( definiton of a Muslim) and be more than happy to sacrifice - for surely God is the all-knowing. V.

QuoteOriginally posted by: VIt is possible to live without divine guidance, however it is rational that a creator would know what is better for his creation than the created. There is no logic in saying you can outwit the creator.There's no logic in assuming the existence of divine guidance. Unless you hear voices in your head, of course.The point of divine guidance is to reach your potential. Assuming for a moment that divine guidance exists outside your imagination, how do you know what the point of it is? Are the voices in your head telling you?If given such a wonderful opportunity, I would submit completely to God's will ( definiton of a Muslim) and be more than happy to sacrificeHow do you know what God's will is? Voices?for surely God is the all-knowing. How do you know that?

QuoteOriginally posted by: EnergeticQuoteOriginally posted by: VIt is possible to live without divine guidance, however it is rational that a creator would know what is better for his creation than the created. There is no logic in saying you can outwit the creator.There's no logic in assuming the existence of divine guidance. Unless you hear voices in your head, of course.The point of divine guidance is to reach your potential. Assuming for a moment that divine guidance exists outside your imagination, how do you know what the point of it is? Are the voices in your head telling you?If given such a wonderful opportunity, I would submit completely to God's will ( definiton of a Muslim) and be more than happy to sacrificeHow do you know what God's will is? Voices?for surely God is the all-knowing. How do you know that?I totally agree with you, which is the biggest reason why I remain agnostic. There are certain logical reasons that religious people believes in that I find rather hard to swallow. Such as God's existence and God's side. I don't think we can know because we are not capable of this kind of intelligence/knowledge. Especially his last comment about sacrificing his son because God is all knowing gives me the jitters.

1. It was assumed that a Creator exists... by Marsden. 2. Marsden was arguing why he should listen to what He says.. so it follows that he assumed divine guidance but was rejecting it.3. Divine guidance has come to us in the form of various scriptures revealed through divine prophets (peace be upon them)- eg. Moses, Jesus, Mohamed - of which only one scripture is unabridged from when it was revealed. So its not voices but written in a clear book. 4. Marsden also assumed that - in whatever way- God had made manifest to me his pleasure in sacrificing my son. So if this were the case, then my answer stands. 5. If we believe a Creator for the entire Universe and its inhabitants exists then it is easy to prove that he is the All-Knowing. You may now seperately want proofs on (a) The existence of such a Creator using epistemological arguments. (b) The fact that the Scriptures are divine. (c) Specifically that the Holy Quran is without addition,subtraction or change.If so, I will try and clarify or if you have any other questions. For Him alone belongs all praise and thankfullness. V.

QuoteOriginally posted by: V1. It was assumed that a Creator exists... by Marsden...You are kidding right? Please tell me you are because to go back to this:Quote]Originally posted by: VQuote--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by: MarsdenQuote--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by: VMarsden, do you mean you think it is irrelevant whether there is a creator or not.... So there is no consequence either way ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Oh, there might be a consequence. But why should I care? If God is the Great Bully in the sky, who will punish me if I don't do what he wants, then screw him; I'll take my "punishment" honorably rather than play his stupid game. If God is a being of reason and goodwill, then he should take no affront at my efforts at reason and goodwill without kowtowing to the many and contradictory expressions of his advice.So what about you, V? Are you religious only for utilitarian reasons? If God told you to sacrifice your son to him, would you do it?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Marsden, I am glad to see you believe in a creator. I don't see how you can interpret Marsden's idea of him believing in a creator. It was asked that about the consequences and merely gave examples of "IF" (read that word carefully in his sentence please) there was one, not that he believes there is one. Maybe it is just me, but isn't that already a "biased assumption" on your part to even use the word IF to mean that Marsden indeed believes that God exists? Your other part of the list either involved this idea that Marsden "assumed" but it seems more to me that you "assumed". As for the other parts of your reasoning, it is hopeless to even carry out such a conversation as it will basically come down to views, reasoning, assumptions, and semantics. Really though, humor me with your justifications of a,b and c, as well as why you even posted this thread.Here are my assumption of possible reasons of why you are "curious" to what other people think of religion.1) Your insecurity with certain issues drove you to seek acceptance on an intellectual level that you might be able to create by disagreeing with what other people think on this forum.2) You actually need to be assured by the rest of the population that what you believe is true and this can only be done if you can disprove other people's argument.3) You just down right have issues.or my favorite 4) You are Nonius also!!!!! Obviously I am speculating also but not like it really matters, this is just a off topic forum anyways! Anything and everything goes

Was very disappointed by your reply tabris. If you note Marsden's first response he said : " I don't have an argument against the existence of a creator". Then he went on to talk about why he should listen to Him. So, I answered his questions based on the fact that there is a God and that God is telling him what to do, So do you suggest to answer him assuming there is no Creator. Or given there is no divine justice. That would be nonsensical..... dont you agree. Thereafter I proposed answering questions which may be raised, if these assumptions were not made. Then you go on to dismiss the whole discussion by saying it will all come down to views etc...Tabris this is theology. (Also known as High philosophy. Whereas mathematics is Middle Philosophy and natural science is Low philosophy. From the words philos and sophia , the former meaning 'Love', the latter 'wisdom'. Plato called Socrates philosophos meaning he was a lover of wisdom) - This has been discussed since the ancient greek philosophers whose works you use nowadays in day to day life(eg. Pythagoras).... It is strange you make such comments. finally, you go on to make baseless statements about my intentions. - what a waste of time. Just as people talk about mathematics on this thread, is it so astonishing that I want to discuss theology. I am not here to humour you.. good luck mate. V.

QuoteOriginally posted by: VWas very disappointed by your reply tabris. If you note Marsden's first response he said : " I don't have an argument against the existence of a creator". Then he went on to talk about why he should listen to Him. So, I answered his questions based on the fact that there is a God and that God is telling him what to do, So do you suggest to answer him assuming there is no Creator. Or given there is no divine justice. That would be nonsensical..... dont you agree. Thereafter I proposed answering questions which may be raised, if these assumptions were not made. Then you go on to dismiss the whole discussion by saying it will all come down to views etc...Tabris this is theology. (Also known as High philosophy. Whereas mathematics is Middle Philosophy and natural science is Low philosophy. From the words philos and sophia , the former meaning 'Love', the latter 'wisdom'. Plato called Socrates philosophos meaning he was a lover of wisdom) - This has been discussed since the ancient greek philosophers whose works you use nowadays in day to day life(eg. Pythagoras).... It is strange you make such comments. finally, you go on to make baseless statements about my intentions. - what a waste of time. Just as people talk about mathematics on this thread, is it so astonishing that I want to discuss theology. I am not here to humour you.. good luck mate. V.There you go again making assumptions. As you are not here to humor me, I am not here to humor you with any unjustifiable interpretation. From my perspective on these topics, I would never like to assume anything about each comment as other people would jump on and attack each sentence as a "disappointing reply". Let me ask you, how can you assume that "I don't have an argument against the existence of a creator" to mean he "believes" in a creator. These two ideas are completely different. There are people who have no factual argument against the existence of a creator or for that matter they would have no argument against the non existence of a creator but that does not mean they believe in its existence or non existence. It just means that they can't prove its existence or non-existence. Whether believing in it is a totally different story. It can be true that Marsden does believe in the existence of God but you cannot infer that from anything he said. But maybe this is just me who thinks that sentence cannot be interpreted as such. Please, do explain why you can assume that he believes in the existence of God from that sentence because I might have left my brain at work.As for my suggestion, I did not suggest anything besides humor me with your explanations. My intention was clear by my post as it has nothing to do with his response but merely saying you started with the ASSUMPTION of interpreting someone's message and then use it to defend your answer by justifying that you answered a certain way because he was refering to an idea in which you assumed.Also, thanks for the word root 101. I mean GOSH you are so smart! I didn't know any of that! Seriously, was that even necessary? Does it make you feel smarter because you somehow wrote a paragraph about philosophy? Look, I don't want to give you another chance to assume thing so let me explain. I did not dismiss the whole discussion but merely YOUR ideas. Many people have some rather interesting views and I would love to read them but I purposely dismiss yours. If you would like to assume everything and anything then by all means do it, but don't reason your ideas around such an assumption. To hold such an immensely debated topic on this forum would require people to clearly define what they mean when they say certain things. Otherwise, it is basically one guy arguing in french and the other guy arguing in english. Again, like I have said, semantics. Also, clarify to me why it is strange for me to dismiss your list of discussion? If you say that my comments were strange with regards to dismissing the "whole" discussion then you have mistaken. My "strange comments" was targeted at dismissing YOUR list and nothing more. Why do I dismiss your list? Because even up until now you refuse to admit that you have made a questionable assumption. If this is the way you debate, there is no chance I would even bother. Obviously, this just means you are either way too smart that you can predict people's thoughts by simple comments or that you would not admit mistakes. Either way, the discussion with that type of person is just a one-sided debate.Baseless statments you say? Interesting, I even pointed out that I was speculating but thanks for changing the word speculation into a derogatory term such as baseless statement. Why not ask me why I even speculated as you seem to like to ask Why so much. Or did you assume that I have no understanding of anything at all? To make it easy to understand for you why I assumed you think I am a moron, let me explain using my "baseless" statements.1) you are disappointed in me (easy to point out in your msg)2) you need to define words (I still see absolutely no relevance in this other than to be a jackass)3) said I was a waste of time (I am wasting your time so you write back with a condescending message... nice)So, to put some reason behind my baseless statements:You created a topic and asked for opinions then jumped onto and question anyone who gave you a glimpse of their serious opinion. Was it not you who wrote and I quote:"Marsden, do you mean you think it is irrelevant whether there is a creator or not.... So there is no consequence either way ?DCFC, you say you dont have a problem with the existence of God, but then say belief in God is a bad thing ??????? this sounds illogical to me. "Maybe I am being sensitive, but to me, you sound like one of those lawyers who only asks a question because they already know the answer in advance. From my standpoint, this does not look like a topic of discussion but merely a satisfaction for you to break down each persons' opinion on the issue. This is my assumption for the so called baseless statements. If this message is wasting your time again then I appologize. Also, don't be disappointed in me because I don't assume things. It is just that my mortal mind cannot comprehend all the "logical" assumptions you have made.Finally, I would like to say that although you are not here to humor me, I clearly was laughing when reading your oh so insightful post. Thanks a lot for making my day!

Life is a random process!!!!!If there is a God (my best bet is He is Nonious and Nonious is He) he would like us to (a) figure out the rules of the games and (b) won the game. It has to be a very, very boring existance to know it all (what happened and waht would be happening, who it happened, why is happening, ettc. etc.) so inmagine that a very, very smart being (Nonious. perhaps) get to know it all like that...solution to boredom = craete a game that even you cannot know the outcme and then. just watch to see what happen!!!

Ok tabris ,well done. i'll leave it there. [36.10] And it is alike to them whether you warn them or warn them not: they do not believe.V.

QuoteOriginally posted by: VMarsden, I am glad to see you believe in a creator.You have found more in my response than was there. Maybe this tendency in you also explains your belief in God?QuoteIt is possible to live without divine guidance, however it is rational that a creator would know what is better for his creation than the created. There is no logic in saying you can outwit the creator.So if God tells you that you like vanilla better than chocolate, you would believe him, even if you had thought you liked chocolate better than vanilla? What if he tells you you like anchovy ice cream best of all?QuoteThe point of divine guidance is to reach your potential. It is like eg. operating a video camera without a manual. you may be able to use it but not to its full capability.The point of "divine guidance" in my experience has normally been to separate me from my own reason and free will. And often from my money, too.QuoteIn answer to your question of sacrifice.. If given such a wonderful opportunity, I would submit completely to God's will ( definiton of a Muslim) and be more than happy to sacrifice - for surely God is the all-knowing.Then I certainly hope that you never have children, for you would be an unfit parent. How would you be sure, for example, that you are really hearing God's will?I think you should submit to my guidance in order to become a better person. And my first guidance is that you should not submit to my guidance -- nor to anyone else's, regardless of how divine you find the being -- but rather that you should only listen to guidance and you should always follow your own reason, your own perceptions, and your own values.If you cannot do that, how can I possibly consider that you, who are not free and who does not think for himself, has anything to say that would be of interest to me?

QuoteOriginally posted by: V3. Divine guidance has come to us in the form of various scriptures revealed through divine prophets (peace be upon them)- eg. Moses, Jesus, Mohamed - of which only one scripture is unabridged from when it was revealed. So its not voices but written in a clear book. At best, the scriptures present a set of rules that can guide you in some situations but not always. The overall purpose is also unclear. I don't recall anything regarding reaching one's potential.You may now seperately want proofs on ... the fact that the Scriptures are divine Of course I do. I say some ordinary people wrote those books and then fooled others into believing in their divinity. Not only that I want to see your proof, but frankly, I can't see what could possibly constitute a proof. But go ahead, I'm listening.If we believe a Creator for the entire Universe and its inhabitants exists then it is easy to prove that he is the All-Knowing.Go right ahead. I want to see your proof. But don't make any assumptions. All I'm willing to take for granted is in the preceding line. My null-hypothesis is that God created all this mess by way of having a divine accident. I notice that you avoided one significant question. I'll repeat it for you: How do you know what God's will is?

Marsden,If I have found more in yr response, then I take it back.. simple. It's not abt what you 'like', you've missed the point completely. Its about whats the right thing to do. Committing adultery may casue pleasure during the act, but doesnt mean I will follow what I like to do. Similarly, bacon probably tastes very nice, no doubt, but since I have been told not to eat it by the one who created me, and the one who will decide when I will return to Him, I submit to His will. The answer about sacrifice was a result of a question which made it clear that it WAS God's will. Now 'YOU' who said it was God's will... are asking.. how do i know if it is his will or not..... it was the basis of your question!! You didn't ask me about how people recv such commands and how they know if this is really God's command... like Abraham (pbuh). It is first important for you to qualify if you believe or not in a creator .. then we can argue on these details after that. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Energetic, I think I should first prove that God is All- Knowing... then address your other questions. So just to make sure ... we are assuming that there is a Creator (God) ... right ?