I'm confused. In what situations is someone hired initially as an analyst, initially as a 2rd or 3rd year analyst, or initially as an associate?I'm 22 with 1 year or unrelated work experience after undergrad and I'm about to start a Financial Engineering program. When I start looking for an internship next summer at what level do I look? I'm assuming analyst, but I'd like to make sure.

QuoteOriginally posted by: kingrat55I'm confused. In what situations is someone hired initially as an analyst, initially as a 2rd or 3rd year analyst, or initially as an associate?I guess it all depends on your negotation's abilites and on your school's policy

What would school policy have to do with it at all?

well the school decides whether it wants its degree to be seen as MBA level (-> hiring as an associate) or not.To be seen as MBA level, it needs to mostly admit students who already have 2 yrs work experience.If this is the case, but there's also a guy in the program who's coming straight from undergrad with a few internships, he still has some chance to be hired as an associate.

There is no hard and fast rule as far as recruiting is concerned. People without experience can also get in as Associates if they do well enough in the interviews AND if they're graduate program is a 2 year one. Goldman ofcourse knows that it can get away by paying less to the capable students because of its brand value. Although 55K is what fresh undergrads get (1st year Analyst) and it's surprising that they're giving the same compensation to Masters students. Usually the banks will take up Masters students as 2nd or 3rd year analyst. If you do really well on the interviews for a 2nd tier bank, they might offer you Associate position EVEN IF you have zero experience!$55K is definitely the lower end of the compensation grip for sure.

Thanks for the info, randomax. That definately answered my questions.

I was a summer associate last year and yes it is possible to get an associate without an experience there. However, they are all PhD candidate and the firm actually require a solid PhD degree before they can be recommended for full-time assoicate. Otherwise, they will be placed in the analyst program if they don't have any experience before. None of them are from master's program.It may be that those 6 French students have already some sort of experience before or when coming down to full-time employment, they will just be considered as an analyst. Those 55000 for the other 3 french students are exactly the standard starting salary for analyst in tier 1 or high tier 2 banks.Besides, associate for tier 1 banks is different from tier 2 or tier 3 in terms of the bonus expectation although the base may be similar. However, 85000 sounds to me a 2nd tier associate paid.

FYI, almost all banks at WallStreet (tier 1 and 2) pay the same base salary to associates ($95k). Also, most of the rankings for I-Banks are based on their M&A performance. There are quite a few top notch banks in trading which are considered 2nd tier banks because of their M&A performance. Although I can't generalize but the bonus at these banks are at par with 1st tier banks. A random example is Bear, excellent pay, excellent bond trading house but not 1st tier. Same goes for BofA and Lehman.$85K is probably base salary for 3rd year analyst. I don't want to be repetitive but IT IS possible to get in as an associate after a Masters (without Ph.D. and work experience)!!

It is common sense that there is no definite rule for one to be hired as an associate and I personally know one as well. However, it is definitely not the norm and should not be seen as a general case. Berkeley's MFE for example has an average salary of about 90K but many of them has already had years of experience before they enroll to the same program. Therefore the number of students who do not have experience in these type of programs is already quite small and it is misleading if one just claims that 6 out of 9 french students managed to get associate position without stating their background for reference. Besides, a top tier 2 bank is already paying 100K at least last year and tier 1 banks I know is even more generous in terms of associate hire - GS I heard for example has 100K + 30K housing allowance for all associate. Therefore 95K salary may be a bit low to me for tier 1 banks.Finally, the specific paid of bonus of course depends on the performance of the trading desk. It is entirely possible that Bear Stern pay their staffs more than a tier 1 bank for a particular year. However, the bonus "expectation" from tier 1 is usually higher than tier 2. Someone has already posted a survey in this forum which showed tier 1 banks indeed has higher on average in both salary and bonus compensation.

QuoteOriginally posted by: EthanIt is common sense that there is no definite rule for one to be hired as an associate and I personally know one as well. However, it is definitely not the norm and should not be seen as a general case. Berkeley's MFE for example has an average salary of about 90K but many of them has already had years of experience before they enroll to the same program. Therefore the number of students who do not have experience in these type of programs is already quite small and it is misleading if one just claims that 6 out of 9 french students managed to get associate position without stating their background for reference. True. The earlier poster however asked "in which situation are people taken up as anaylst, associate, etc." and the only requirement is a 2 year graduate program for the assoicate position. Yes, on an average associates has work experience and/or a Ph.D. since the market is very competitive and the banks can afford to be selective. I didn't want to be picky but just want to clarify since it might help answer some specific questions earlier.QuoteBesides, a top tier 2 bank is already paying 100K at least last year and tier 1 banks I know is even more generous in terms of associate hire - GS I heard for example has 100K + 30K housing allowance for all associate. Therefore 95K salary may be a bit low to me for tier 1 banks.The base pay for both Goldman and Bear this time was the same. In fact, 2nd tier banks like Bear, CSFB and BofA gauranteed 1st year associates an all in compensation of $200k which would be on the upper end of Goldman's 1st year associate pay. This compensation structure was limited to corporate finance so that these banks can lure the best talent from GS/MS/Citi. There is no way the top talent will join 2nd tier banks if they are not paid better and I know of quite a few people who have opted for 2nd tier banks just because of this reason (some people also liked the culture..less cocky people)QuoteFinally, the specific paid of bonus of course depends on the performance of the trading desk. It is entirely possible that Bear Stern pay their staffs more than a tier 1 bank for a particular year. However, the bonus "expectation" from tier 1 is usually higher than tier 2. Someone has already posted a survey in this forum which showed tier 1 banks indeed has higher on average in both salary and bonus compensation.I would agree that on average better banks pay better. The trend however is opposite at the entry level with 2nd tier banks paying more (not hard and fast though). Furthermore, as you mentioned the final decision to accept will depend on the desk you are being placed at and that is more important than the overall reputation of the bank. I would probably accept Bear FI over Goldman FI, but then it might be different for different people.

The number of replies to this thread has really grown, given that when I posted last night, I was like the 9th person who posted...Anyways, just to clarify some of the points made:1) The 6 out of 9 french students who were hired as summer associates etc etc are all fresh out from school. None of them has full-time work experience. They are outstanding candidates these French =) Fully deserve this if you ask me. They really know their shit. 2) It IS POSSIBLE to be made an associate straight out from a Masters program w/o ANY FULL-TIME work experience. I know this is true because one of my very good friend, who did his undergrad and went DIRECT to a Masters in Fin. Math all in the USA, was hired as an associate in one of the top 5 banks (top 5 w/o question).3) In all honesty, I think that if you're hired as a summer associate, there is no way that when it comes to a full-time offer, they will make you an analyst instead of an associate. Just doesn't make sense to me. If they did that, they can be sure that they won't be able to retain anyone. (but if you guys have heard of or personally experienced such a situation, please share with us!!! =) )In my own experience, I went for an interview at a top 5 bank (US bank, i.e. not UBS, Deutsche etc.) for trading. I got the internship. HR person called me and said that she knows that I went straight from undergrad to masters, but that they will be offering me an internship as a summer associate. This is for trading, not quant. I honestly think that when they interview people, they are not interviewing "for analysts, " or "for associates." No one interviews "for analysts," or "for associates." Everyone is interviewing "for an exotic trader," or "for a quant." For example JP is looking for 3 quants for their exotic equity derivatives desk. They receive tons of resumes from PhDs, Masters, and some undergrads. Eventually, they'll prob interview mainly PhDs and maybe 2-3 Masters students. Now, assume that they are really impressed by 2 PhDs and 1 Masters student, and decide to hire them all. Since they are all doing the same job, it would be unfair to pay the Master's student significantly less than the Masters student. One can argue that a Masters student lacks academic training etc. But at the end of the day, finance is not rocket science. My friend who was hired directly as an associate, he is doing VERY well in his job. He is the only non-PhD in a group of >10 PhDs. I honestly think that your "rank" (analyst/associate) is dependent on the position that you go for. If it is an associate level position, and they hire a fresh Masters grad, chances are, he/she will be an associate too. FYI, in my opinion, I feel that the companies that hired the 6 french students as summer associates, they are top-tier banks. And I'm fresh from undergrad, no work experience, not French. But still hired as a summer associate. So I say it is possible!

QuoteTrue. The earlier poster however asked "in which situation are people taken up as anaylst, associate, etc." and the only requirement is a 2 year graduate program for the assoicate position. Yes, on an average associates has work experience and/or a Ph.D. since the market is very competitive and the banks can afford to be selective. I didn't want to be picky but just want to clarify since it might help answer some specific questions earlier.To be precise, there is no formal requriement to be hired as an associate - even the 2 year graduate program. If you are good, then you will be hired out of undergraduate but it is not the norm.QuoteThe base pay for both Goldman and Bear this time was the same. In fact, 2nd tier banks like Bear, CSFB and BofA gauranteed 1st year associates an all in compensation of $200k which would be on the upper end of Goldman's 1st year associate pay. This compensation structure was limited to corporate finance so that these banks can lure the best talent from GS/MS/Citi. There is no way the top talent will join 2nd tier banks if they are not paid better and I know of quite a few people who have opted for 2nd tier banks just because of this reason (some people also liked the culture..less cocky people)We really have to conduct an survey to this. However, 2 points I should point out:1) by your logic, a 3rd tier or 4th tier banks pay the same as 1st tier bank to lure the top talents. The point I think is: for trading, a talented fresh graduate from college is far more cost effective than a master's or PhD without previous experience. Banks do not have to compete in associate level to capture talents.2) I have also read that article which is circulated well in the internet about the $200k guarantee. However, does it reflect the pay of the associate overall? Will associate in sales trading be paid the same. If we take into account the total compensation, we can only speak of expectation since the majority of firm will not offer guarantee for associate level.

QuoteThe 6 out of 9 french students who were hired as summer associates etc etc are all fresh out from school. None of them has full-time work experience. They are outstanding candidates these French =) Fully deserve this if you ask me. They really know their shit.That's fair. But why it has to be 6 out of 9 "French"? I personally know a guy who does not even have a master's degree and working experience still manage to get an associate position. Should I say the mayority of students get associate fresh from their college degree? I know we are talking about requirements for associate hire but that ratio seems to me is a bit misleading although you might just want to emphasize the possibility.QuoteIt IS POSSIBLE to be made an associate straight out from a Masters program w/o ANY FULL-TIME work experience. I know this is true because one of my very good friend, who did his undergrad and went DIRECT to a Masters in Fin. Math all in the USA, was hired as an associate in one of the top 5 banks (top 5 w/o question).I agree it is POSSIBLE.QuoteIn all honesty, I think that if you're hired as a summer associate, there is no way that when it comes to a full-time offer, they will make you an analyst instead of an associate. Just doesn't make sense to me. If they did that, they can be sure that they won't be able to retain anyone. (but if you guys have heard of or personally experienced such a situation, please share with us!!! =) )Should go to check with HR. But "no way" seems a bit over-confident" I personally know a PhD candidate who was summer associate in trading desk was offered an analyst position if he cannot finish his PhD the time he enrolls the full-time program. Besides, banks do not have to retain any associate who has not even traded a dime in the real market. The supply of talents w/o experience is far enough for banks to replace an summer associate. QuoteEventually, they'll prob interview mainly PhDs and maybe 2-3 Masters students. Now, assume that they are really impressed by 2 PhDs and 1 Masters student, and decide to hire them all. Since they are all doing the same job, it would be unfair to pay the Master's student significantly less than the Masters student. Since PhD students, master's students and undergraduate students are hired to do the same job - junior exotic trading - should we say undergraduate students should be offerred associate position as well?

I say "6 out of 9 French" because that was what was being discussed in the earlier postings, not because I want to single them out. And I'm not saying that there is any "ratio" here, i.e I am not saying that out of 100 french people who attend NYU's program, 67 will be hired as associates. That is NOT the point. This statistic is quoted because the FACT is that out of the 9 french students, 6 are hired as summer associates. And I have a feeling that this was brought up initially because almost all the French students got their internships before any other students. (and also because all the french students are fresh from college)Thank you for making all of us aware of the possibility (that you're hired as summer associate, then offered full-time as analyst). I'm keeping my own fingers crossed that if I perform well, I will be hired full time as an associate. And as for whether or not an undergrad should be hired as an associate: I honestly think that if the undergrad proves to be an outstanding enough candidate that 1) the company even wants to interview him/her for such a position2) actually stand out from a field of PhDs and Masters studentsthen I honestly think that he/she deserves it. (think ken griffin - harvard undergrad, citadel founder). Having said that, such a candidate would probably have done something spectacular (like write his own model for vol - and trading with it) on his/her own time. Such a candidate should definitely be hired as an associate.(in my humble opinion) But of course, the real world doesn't work like that.....Let me konw if you guys hear of any undergrads made associate stright out from school.

Forget about the french students. I think the discussion is about the general situation, not the isolated students who are so happened that are talent, know the shit without risking a dime in real market, got internship ahead of anyone in NYU and are French who I have told to be the "king" of trading and mathematician. Associate or analyst is not the only route after summer associateship. One can choose not to join the formal associate program if he has several years of relevant experience and I am fortunate to fall into that group.Of course, undergraduate can be hired as an associate. I know CEO with only 2 years exp! However, the point is whether it is common situation, isn't it? Is Ken Griffin common in your campus?