Need your input guys - so I work in the front office of a bulge-bracket US investment bank and there's been a proposition for me to transfer to Tokyo, doing something very similar to what I'm doing now but out there. This was pretty much out of the blue and not initiated by me in any shape or form, but the spiel is basically that they're super short-staffed over there and that it'd be a move up for me (which, strictly speaking in terms of independence/rank/exposure etc may be true). My question is, in prelim discussions I've had they've sort of tried to discount the possibility of going there on an expat package. What do you guys think of that? I mean, given that I didn't ask to go there and that I've got no interest in going through a major life change to live in a dump on the outskirts of Tokyo, I sort of expect to either an increase in comp or an expat package. What's the norm these days? Is it true that the big players now just expect you to pack up and set up shop on your own dough? How have the ones of you out there who've transferred to another country at some point or another been treated? Any input appreciated, trying to figure out if I've been legged over...

Is your bank growing in Japan ? Asia/Japan experience after a few years in the US, is considered good by some people.

What is your new salary going to be, relative to the cost of living there(PPP), are there tax incentives (i.e., will you pay less tax?), how badly do you want to experience Tokyo? are all things to consider.

Tokyo has a very steep cost of living.

if you're with US bulge bracket you'll be working in akasaka or roppongi (where all the other US bulge brackets are based)not sure how i would explain in two words new york but here are some others....london - pubs and parkssingapore - food and shoppingtokyo - money and womenfor comparison sakea one bed flat will cost yen 200-300+k within 30mins of these areas (which are next to each other - 10min walk)a five minute taxi journey is about 1ka few drinks 10ka big night out 40k up to 5k for each bara weekend skiing can cost as little as 30-40k (1.5 hrs from tokyo station to the bottom of the slopes)new york grill in park hyatt 60kutility bills 30kcars are cheap - but it costs a fortune to park - parking space 60k per monthgeneral rule of thumb if you move somewhere:where expected pay is more than home negotiate on the fact you spend all your moneywhere expected pay is less than home negotiate on the fact you save all your money except basics

You should hold out for the package, since Tokyo can involve long hard commutes, and a vaguely decent home is not cheap at all.A foreigner in any city cannot live as "efficiently" as a local, you will spend more money to achieve the same level, and obviously you will make occasionallt make mistakes that cost money.Hunting for somewhere to live won't be trivial, and of course the outfits that "help" foreigners charge a healthy premium for this service. Also you say "may" be a step up. That needs to be in place before you agree to leave. "we'll sort it out once you've established yourself" is not a promise, it's a lie.6 months from now your boss will be worrying about a lot more pressing matters other than why your promotion hasn't come through and a squabble far away over the sort of work you're being asked to do.Also, it is the case that in your current location you wil have prospects as well, so you need to evaluate it relative to what you expect to happen anyway.Once there, your negotiation position gets very weak, indeed you may find it hard to find anyone to negotiate with at all.I may be being cynical, but "super short staffed", is a condition that affects the lower ranks, a lot more frequently than the higher ones, you want to look at what you are going to be doing more closely.Japanese outfits often have radically different ideas about bonus/salary than western ones, so you need to get that tied down now.In general, "expenses" have better tax treatment than pay, but I'm not an international tax lawyer, indeed if you work for a big IB they will have someone who can help you on this front.Obviously I'm basing this on thin data, but this looks bad. Moving back may also have issues, since it's a lot more work applying for jobs fromn that far away, and quiiting without a job to go to involves risk.Also there are cultural issues, some people just don't get on with Japanese people, others find dealing with people whose first language is not English quite irritating. Japanese office "etiquette" is quite different, and it's easy to screw up.Although it has a low crime rate, and many services ar of very high quality, Tokyo is a noisy city. Probably none of these apply to you, but if it doesn't work out due to personal issues, you are in a very awkward situation. I think it's worth investing a bit of time thinking up a form of words that will extract you from this without pissing people off.

In my experience Tokyo's great fun if you're 22-28 with no ties and you enjoy a certain sort of lifestyle! If that's not you then there are far better places to be - most banks were trying to cut back on expat packages when I last did any work out there (04) - I think that trend has continued and as DCFC says, if you don't know the city you will get hammered!

I hear that Tokyo has less tax the first couple of years (still to be confirmed - sure about the first year though). Also, it depends when you join - there are subtleties linked to the local tax regime which prevails on top of income tax. I was in similar situation to yours (although not Front Office), but I had asked to go... Several years before, which they had remembered, causing me having little room to negotiate.In terms of compensation, there is one thing that you need to bear in mind: ultimately, they will use any remaining "freedom" they have to pay you what they want to pay you (which may be less that what they think you are worth). For example, a housing allowance can always be counterbalanced by a lower bonus.My advice would be: don't go there for the money but for what I find a pleasant experience once (long) office hours are over. Also, the rest of Asia is definitely worth visiting too, even though Hong Kong is a far more central location. You can pm me for a further exchange on this topic.

We just had a richter 6.2 temblor, so you may want to factor that in as well....I am came over courtesy of an ex-employer (US bulge bracket), who paid for shipping, helped me find a place, plus paid for apartment deposit and key money (which can be anywhere from 3-6 months rent). You should at least get this. If you come on local payroll, income tax is 18%, but then you have to pay compulsory insurance, which takes it up to about 30%. You could probably negotiate the details. Also, I would expect an increase in comp, simply because you are moving to a place that is quite different from your typical western city, and in all likelyhood will be pushed outside your comfort zone.If you want to live large as a gaijin lothario, then sure it will burn a hole in your wallet. If you live sensibly, then rent aside, living expenses are about the same as other big western cities, cf: London and NY. Sure the economist always ranks Tokyo and Osaka as #1 & 2 in terms of living costs, but their method is crap. I found living in Sydney more expensive in many ways, which a number of my compatriots have confirmed.The big issue is rent. If you go through the gaijin/expat realtors, expect to get your face ripped off. If you can get somebody in your Tokyo office who is experienced and proficient in the lingo, then you can get a new 1 bedroom unit 20-30 minutes from central Tokyo (Otemachi/Nihonbashi, Roppongi/Akasaka, Ebisu) for < 160k JPY/month. Despite what people say, Tokyo is not all concrete jungle, there are parts that are relatively quiet and green, Ebisu/Meguro/Setagaya for example. Also some nice places around the Tsukiji/Harumi area, although that is further from the gaijin safety net areas in Minato Ku.In the end, don't come here if you don't want to. You at least need to be open-minded to it, with a willingness to learn the culture and lingo to make the most of it. If you get a decent base (15M+ JPY, with bonus expectations), you can save a fair bit of money living here, although you will burn some cash for the first 6 months.

If they were paying the market rate in Tokyo they could hire someone local to do the job ...What's the population of Tokyo again? 20 million? And they can't find anyone? Hmm.I think you should just insist on the ex-pat package or not go. If you're pressured simply repeat some unarguable fact like "I dont speak any Japanese" to counter the argument that you should be paid as a local.

Is it many non-japanese speaking people working in the finance industry in Tokyo?

pabo: thanks for the numbers, that's some great info which is generally kind of hard to get. I'll take it into considerationQuoteOnce there, your negotiation position gets very weak, indeed you may find it hard to find anyone to negotiate with at all.Yeah, I know - I guess that's why I'm trying to figure out things now, because if I go out there and realize it's a ghost town (the office, not Tokyo) I'll basically be scr*wed.Quote think it's worth investing a bit of time thinking up a form of words that will extract you from this without pissing people off. Maybe... I've played it non-commital for now and I think after reading these comments that actually the right solution may be the simplest: insist on an expat package and if they refuse, then just don't go. The only catch with that is the fall-out afterwards (which I think I should be able to deal with) and, more i mportantly, the chance that they'll give me the expat benefits but just subtract it from my bonus at year-end as Odusseus mentioned.The short-staffed thing doesn't seem that unreasonable to me - it's basically a relationship business and it would take some time and expense to fill that slot adequately. I just think I'm the cheapest option (relatively speaking) they've got...Thanks to everyone for their input, any other advice greatly appreciated. I'll let you know what happens next... (that is, if they don't disconnect my internet connection after I've been chucked out when I refuse the Tokyo gig and end up penniless on the streets.)

The short-staffed thing doesn't seem that unreasonable to me - it's basically a relationship business and it would take some time and expense to fill that slot adequately. I just think I'm the cheapest option (relatively speaking) they've got...And you have these relationships ?Not my core competence but it seems to me that landing cold in Tokyo as a gaijin trying to build relationships is not trivial.

QuoteOriginally posted by: jorgenbgIs it many non-japanese speaking people working in the finance industry in Tokyo?Aplenty. Only need Japanese for sales to Japanese clients - and still.