Soviet union isn't a factor anymore, why go on with aid?Good question.Russia probably couldn't reach Germany, much less conquer it, yet we still have NATO, though this is not quite a constant thanks to the French I'm not a devotee of Jewish conspiracies, but recognise that they play the game better than anyone else. I recall that tom Clancy has a huge disaster predicated upon the "nightmare scenario" of a small number of Moslems wising up for a few weeks. Israel exists because it outsmarts its enemies. Problem with smart vs big is that everyone has dumb days, but big is always there.

Whats the difference between being a Jew and being an Israeli in terms of Nationality, Ethnicity and Religion?As I understand it, being a Jew is sufficient to get Israeli citizenship, so in a sense all jews are Israelis. Many feel exctly this.What may surprise those who watch its behaviour, is that it is not populated entirely by the insanely relgious, it has a good number of solely ethnic jews. This will change, as its divisions become more vicous.>Whats the percentage of Jews in the various countries mentioned in this thread, and if possible what are their main business/social status?As I understand it only Britain has accurate figures, and they're about 1/2 %. Don't know any research on occupation, if forced to guess would plump for the single biggest group being taxi drivers. Very different from thr USA of course.>Whats so special about them? Why there is such a huge controversy about them?Jews have been "special" in European/America culture since the Romans, indeed they gave the a really rough time.>Why in the US is hard to lobby since there are only two political parties ?Lots of dosh required. Small number of "suppliers" has raised prices.>Is it necessary to be a WASP to have a political career in the US?Close.

QuoteOriginally posted by: gjlipmanOf the total US aid to Israel, is most of it government aid, or is most of it given by individuals and organisations? And of that given directly by the US government, how does it compare with aid given by the US government to arab countries in the region.Egypt receive foreign aid from Japan andl over $US1-billion(?) per annum from the oil-rich states in the Persian Gulf, it is merely a fact that has been incidentally omitted or forgotten.The US aid to Israel constituted largely of military and economic grants. As Marsden already pointed out, the military aid to Israel and Egypt is about $2-billion a year for each state. Approximately 26% of the military aid can be spent in Israel/Egypt for military procurement, while the rest is spent in the US. Therefore, the US government indirectly subsidizing the local defense industry, and over 1000 companies in 47 states have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program. The economic aid ($1.2-billion per annum) was given according to the CIP program to purchase US commodities, but these terms have been omitted since 1979.But on the other hand, Israel voluntarily offered to reduce its dependence on US economic aid in 1998 (according to an agreement with the Clinton Administration), thus the aid would reduce by $120-million each year. However, the second Intifada has broken out and the reductive program of the economic aid has sustained to a latter stage. Most of this aid is to pay off old debts. In spite of this aid, Israel's economic growth has been lower since 1999 due to political tension in the region. The government as an obligation to protect its citizens has poured billions over billions into occupied territories in effort to protect or build bypass roads for example, because 150 families of extremist settlers will get home peacefully. Moreover, young soldiers are being killed almost on daily basis in the occupied territories just because they must protect 135K settlers…it is amazing how such as small group of extremists can wreak havoc on the entire population (6.6 million). And paradoxically they must be protected.

"Egypt receive foreign aid from Japan and over $US1-billion(?) per annum from the oil-rich states in the Persian Gulf, it is merely a fact that has been incidentally omitted or forgotten." If Egypt receives aid from Japan, I would say it's negligible. Do you have more precise estimates. I've also never heard of aid from the Gulf. I know that many Egyptians work in Gulf states and send money to their families back home, but that's not the same as aid. But I'd be happy to be corrected. "As Marsden already pointed out, the military aid to Israel and Egypt is about $2-billion a year for each state." I don't think that's what Marsden said. There is no way that US military aid to Egypt is comparable to that to Israel. Last time I read actual figures, it was more like a drop in a bucket as compared to aid to Israel. "Approximately 26% of the military aid can be spent in Israel/Egypt for military procurement, while the rest is spent in the US. Therefore, the US government indirectly subsidizing the local defense industry, and over 1000 companies in 47 states have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program." I also wish to aid another fact that I find really amusing. Who covered the costs of the American involvement in the Gulf in the yaerly 90's? Anyone knows? It was to the tune of 3 billion US$. Who actually paid for that? I was very impressed when I heard that they were the Kuwaiti's and Saudi's. They actually footed the bill. "It is amazing how such as small group of extremists can wreak havoc on the entire population (6.6 million). And paradoxically they must be protected." David, I can only tell you what I've been repeatedly told: "They are God's people. God promised them this land. It's theirs. They have the right to live there. It's in the Bible". Please do not argue with God's will.

I am sure people have bundles of Jewsih "conspiracy" proofs on subverting US politics and Bushes policy in particular, but I actually didn't find much. I am not gonna tire you guys with all my findings, but here are lists of top twenty Gore and Bush contributors with their contributions.Gore contributorsBush contributorsWhat one sees is that security industry hedged itself symmetrically, Bush got support from several Texas businesses and surprisingly to me from all accounting firms -- that's in fact the only thing that raises a question. Gore got support from several government departments and some money from Jewish Council and from some Jewish sounding Kushner whatever Co. Both got support from some law firms. I didn't quite see the Jewish plot in either and definitely not in Bushes contributors. May be I am hugely missing some data, but so far I am quite surprised not even by absence of proof of Jewish influence, but in general by absence of proof of any pronounced influence. Most of the money came from small contributions -- it's impossible to use for influence.

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaI am sure people have bundles of Jewsih "conspiracy" proofs on subverting US politics and Bushes policy in particular, but I actually didn't find much. I am not gonna tire you guys with all my findings, but here are lists of top twenty Gore and Bush contributors with their contributions.<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.opensecrets.org/2000elect/co ... .htm">Gore contributors</a><a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.opensecrets.org/2000elect/co ... .htm">Bush contributors</a>What one sees is that security industry hedged itself symmetrically, Bush got support from several Texas businesses and surprisingly to me from all accounting firms -- that's in fact the only thing that raises a question. Gore got support from several government departments and some money from Jewish Council and from some Jewish sounding Kushner whatever Co. Both got support from some law firms. I didn't quite see the Jewish plot in either and definitely not in Bushes contributors. May be I am hugely missing some data, but so far I am quite surprised not even by absence of proof of Jewish influence, but in general by absence of proof of any pronounced influence. Most of the money came from small contributions -- it's impossible to use for influence.The net is not the end-all-be-all source of information. Its rather naive to take such info at face value.

The key point here is this : "American Jews" are Jews/Israelis first and American second.

>>May be I am hugely missing some data, but so far I am quite surprised not even by absence of proof of Jewish influence, but in general by >>absence of proof of any pronounced influence. Most of the money came from small contributions -- it's impossible to use for influence.There is another dimension to the influence issues. It is a cultural one. Americans tend to feel sympathetic towards Israel since they see it as a scrappy democracy of Holocuast survivors, who deserve some compensation for their tradegy. These are the fruits of the undisputed victory in the victimization Olympics. It is deeply ironic when every other American city has a Holocaust museum with burning letters "Never again" emblazoned on them, while millions are being slaughtered in Rwanda due to unfortunate "acts of genocide".The above is not to imply that being a victim is a sufficient qualification for a vast river of irrational support. It helps, though, if you are rich, influential and on top of that seen as the ultimate victim.

>>May be I am hugely missing some data, but so far I am quite surprised not even by absence of proof of Jewish influence, but in general by >>absence of proof of any pronounced influence. Most of the money came from small contributions -- it's impossible to use for influence.One more thing about the issue of influence. There was actually a semi-cotrolled experiment, which might shed some light on the issue. It was a tad over ten years ago, when James Baker, in a private conversation, declared: "Fuck the Jews, they did not vote for us". You may recall what followed. The U.S. held up $10 billion worth of loan guarantees, blackmailing Shamir's government. This indirectly led to Oslo and all its unfortunate and fortunate consequences. This was probably the last time the U.S. openly pressured Israel.

Toranaga,What do you mean that "American Jews" are Jews/Israelis first and American second. Are you saying the Jewish people who live in America support Isreal more than America or have more love for Israel than America? What proof do you have to support this statement.Do you believe the same holds for American Catholics, American Mulsims etc, etc?

My Jewish violin professor taught me that one when I was a kid: "When you ask a question to a Jew, he answers with another question" Q- Why aid Israel?A- Why not?

<blockquote>Quote<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>nodd</b></i>Toranaga,What do you mean that "American Jews" are Jews/Israelis first and American second. Are you saying the Jewish people who live in America support Isreal more than America or have more love for Israel than America? What proof do you have to support this statement.Do you believe the same holds for American Catholics, American Mulsims etc, etc?<hr></blockquote>Dont forget that the "American Nation" if such a thing exists is a rather loose mosaic of numerous ethnic and religional communities of former immigrants with perhaps the only connecting link the English language with different accent and idioms.I have relatives who live there, they are second or third generation greek americans they work there they have been educated there, Greece for them is only a summer vacation place or a place to enjoy their pension, sometimes they are nt even fluent in greek, but i doubt if they really know what dominates, their ethnicity or their nationality.I have no reason to think why other ethnic communities should diverge from this attitude.The fact that all this mosaic has been transformed in a nation is at least miraculus. I can see it because i live in a country with rather homogeneus population. Just to give you a hint, in the 90s there was an inflow of immigrants here mainly from eastern european countries, now they are almost the 10% of the population, and none here really knows what will happen in the near future, the next 10-20 years, when the children of those immigrants who have taken greek citizenship will be called to serve their military service in the greek armed forces.

"It is deeply ironic when every other American city has a Holocaust museum with burning letters "Never again" emblazoned on them, while millions are being slaughtered in Rwanda due to unfortunate "acts of genocide"." I fail to see how anyone can sympathise with Jewish suffering in Europe (and elsewhere) in the 30's (and many other eras), but fail to sympathise with the Palestinian or Rwandian or any other suffering of today. It is this inconsistency that gets people. Bush, Blair and shorty are always talking about an Iraqi violation of some UN resolution, which they are simply unable to unequivocally prove. On that very shaky basis they give themselves the right to carpet bomb Iraq with 400 missiles aday (as seems to be their plan). Israel is in violation of more than 65 UN resolutions. Does this give anyone an inkling of why the average Arab is highly suspicious of the morality and motivations of western governments?

I fail to see how anyone can sympathise with Jewish suffering in Europe (and elsewhere) in the 30's (and many other eras), but fail to sympathise with the Palestinian or Rwandian or any other suffering of today.I fear the reality is that we live in societies run by white people. A core theme in the many TV programmes on the Holocaust is that they were "people like us". Not only are Rwandans black, but their society is utterly unlike European/American. That may sound like a "jewish conspiracy" view. However, a kinder one is that by showing that the holocaust could happen to "ordinary" people, it gives us all cause to work against tryranny. Recall also that most famines are man made, few in the last 200 years were acts of god. These kill as many as the nastier end of wars.Problem with Rwanda is that it was often the civillian population who did it. In Germany and Japan we were able to pretend that somehow Germans and Japanese were "victims" of their government. bollocks of course, but it helped in the rehabilitation as nations. We even have constructed a myth that the Italians were so crap at war that we shouldn't blame them at all. The downside of this view is that many people have actually come to believe that murder on this scale can be done without "ordinary" people getting involved. The corollary is that some say we shouldn't have bombed Germans and Japanese civiliians, and many seem to think that the Iraqi people are in some sense innocent parties who we must take care not to hurt.