QuoteOriginally posted by: AbhiJIts very important to identify what you surely dislike. Spending 50 hours a week doing something you dislike is not the best strategy. I think TF enjoys programming while EA is not exactly fond of it.Thats the reason for different views. Dude, many people "enjoy programming" but nobody enjoys industrial programming 50 hours per week, 50 weeks per year for the rest of your life!!!!! You're delusional if you claim to enjoy industrial programming that much. After the first 2 years, what you do is mind numbingly repetitive. Cracking desk code is not rock science or creative art -- it's just grunge work. Doncha delude yourself. Even bill gates and the google guys stop daily programming after a few years and moved over to a management job.

QuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesDude, many people "enjoy programming" but nobody enjoys industrial programming 50 hours per week, 50 weeks per year for the rest of your life!!!!! You're delusional if you claim to enjoy industrial programming that much.It's hard to argue with someone that insists that you don't exist.Very, very few people enjoy industrial programming 50 hours a week, 50 weeks per year for the rest of your life. I do. Part of passing an interview where I work is to convince the interviewer that you really *do* love industrial coding and can do it for years on end. This is why people in some areas tend to hire Ph.D.'s and not MBA's. If you are a Ph.D.'s that is a signal that you really do love coding. If you are an MBA, that's a signal that you don't, and you'll go insane and angry after a few months on the job.Part of what I do when I get home is that I start up the linux box and start coding some of my projects on the side. Everyone that I work with enjoys this sort of programming, because they would go totally insane if they didn't. That's one of the things that I look for when I decide where to work. Am I going to be working in a room full of crazy geeks or not.But because there are very, very few people that enjoy this sort of programming, if you do, you have a very, very marketable skill. Supply and demand. Supply and demand. I enjoy finding and fixing bugs. I have some projects in which I find and fix bugs for free (and in fact I do). Now if you want me to find and fix *your* bugs, you gotta pay me.QuoteAfter the first 2 years, what you do is mind numbingly repetitive. Cracking desk code is not rock science or creative art -- it's just grunge work.Which is why people that hire for this sort of work look for people with experience on their CV. If you have someone that just got their MBA, it's possible even *likely* that if you put them in from a computer and having them crunch code for hours and hours, they will go totally insane after a few months. One day, they'll just blow up and quit. (I actually saw this happen once. The manager made the mistake of thinking they they could save money by hiring someone with little experience rather than put up with the annoying complaints of an experienced programmer that wanted more money. So they replaced the experienced programmer with a newbie who was more or less clueless and after a few months, they just went ballistic and quit. They called the person that they let go to see if they wanted to come back, but by that time he was already working on Wall Street, and not able or willing to do anything other than say "I told you so.")If you have someone that has been doing commercial software development for over ten years, and then software development for twenty, it's very, very unlikely that they'll burn out after two years. They might come at you with demands for more money, but they are unlikely to go crazy.And the fact that desktop programming is mind-numbingly repetitive is something a *good* thing. Sometimes things are totally crazy, everything is on fire, people are running around screaming, so you crank up the IDE and try to fix bug 54534, which lets you relax a bit, before the *big meeting*. Also new development is not repetitive.QuoteEven bill gates and the google guys stop daily programming after a few years and moved over to a management job.But it works the other way. There are a lot of people with opportunities to stop coding and move into middle or upper management, who simply *don't want to stop*. Like me. I had a supervisory management position which are 50% coding and 50% administrative. My boss at the company that I worked at was 20% coding and 80% administrative. Her boss was 100% administrative. At this point I hit the glass ceiling because I was unwilling to take a job that didn't have a coding component to it.One of the attractions of some firms is that you have people extremely high up in the organization that code. There are managing directors that pull $1M salaries that still do some coding.Yes. It is rather rare and uncommon to find someone that really enjoys coding, but as with many rare and uncommon skills, this can be turned into cash.

QuoteOriginally posted by: AbhiJIts very important to identify what you surely dislike. Spending 50 hours a week doing something you dislike is not the best strategy. I think TF enjoys programming while EA is not exactly fond of it.Thats the reason for different views.Yes. The other thing is that I've met lots of people in my life who are successful, and I so I've looked at them and decided who I want to be and who I don't want to be. I've met CEO's, business tycoons, entrepreneurs, and Nobel prize winning physicists. Sometimes I've taken a look at someone and said "Cool, that's what I want to be, and that's want I want to do." Other times, it's "thanks but, no thanks, I don't want to do that."In particular, I've had contacts with banking executives that pull multi-million bonuses. Some of them are happy. Some of them are wildly unhappy. All of them deal with tons and tons more stress than what I've had to deal with. I've come to the conclusion that if some offers you a multi-million bonus for something that you really don't want to do, it's not worth it. One of reasons I don't want to switch places with a senior executive and just won't do it for purely money is that the good execs really have the weight of the world on their shoulders. They know that if they make a bad decision, it will have very, very bad consequences (i.e. destroy nations level of bad). The executives with conscience and decency are extremely stressed because they want to make the right decisions, and sometimes they have to live with the consequences of making the wrong set of decisions. If you have a conscience, then it's really tough to lay off workers that are suffering because of something you did. It's easier to do this if you don't have a conscience, which is why lots of people in positions of power, don't.One reason that greatly limited my career advancement is that if I had gotten any hire, then I would have been the one that decided who got laid off and the stare them in the face to tell them about it. There are some people that enjoy this sort of power and control. I don't.Now there are lots of people that just enjoy the money and power and don't have any conscience. I just couldn't do that, and for self-preservation reasons I say very far away from people that are like that (there is another story here). The basic problem here is that if you have someone that enjoys crushing people for the sake of crushing people (and lots and lots of "successful" people are driven by this motivation), then they aren't going to be very nice to you in the end. At one point in my career, I had a "Anakin Skywalker" moment. There was a senior executive that wanted to take me under his wing, because he saw in me someone with a lot of potential, and he was very, very convincing that I should do his bidding. But in the end, I ran. Either one of two things would happen. If I was lucky, I'd wake up one morning with a knife in my back. If I was unlucky, I'd turn into that senior executive. The one hour conversation I had with that executive was one of the most fun conversations I've ever had, and I still think to myself "so *that's* what it's like to talk to Satan." One reason I got interested in sales and marketing is because of that executive. One thing that was cool and scary was that he was instantly able to figure out emotional and psychological weaknesses that it took me several months to figure out that I had. Cool.....I'm sure he found someone else.......One reason that I ended up on Wall Street, is that this senior executive really *wasn't* a master of the dark arts of mind control. He was a low level flunky. If you want to find people that are much, much more skilled at mind control than that executive, you go New York City. And even the people in NYC are just doing elementary school stuff compared to the guys in Washington DC, who are the real masters of the art.A little arrogance is a good thing. I know that if I wanted to that I could become the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. I don't have any doubts that I *can* do this. If I woke up tomorrow, and then I decided that I wanted to be a head trader at a major investment bank and pull a $20 million bonus, I know I can do that. It's not a question of ability. It's a question of desire. Having listened closely to CEO's and head traders talk about their lives, I'd rather code. Now you might wonder if I'm being used and exploited by some evil master of mind control that is making me think that I'm a hotshot coder so that I can work like a dog to make him his multi-million dollar bonus, and then answer is "heck yes!!!" But it's between consenting adults, and I'm having fun. You just have to be careful who you get into bed with.

WSJ 9/18/09 "As Riches Fade, So Does Finance's Allure' So dust up your math and physics diplomas.

Quote The one hour conversation I had with that executive was one of the most fun conversations I've ever had, and I still think to myself "so *that's* what it's like to talk to Satan." One reason I got interested in sales and marketing is because of that executive. One thing that was cool and scary was that he was instantly able to figure out emotional and psychological weaknesses that it took me several months to figure out that I had. Cool.....Care to elaborate on this section ? I used you get upset when I saw people like that. Now I feel scared and sad at the same time. But if you can elaborate on that it would help me understand better. It is amazing how many people are like that in the corporate world. Makes me wonder how they deal with their families and friends or if they even have any. Even more scary is, do I have friends and family like that which I do not know of since they hide it from me. People like that cannot grow if they show their personality to their superiors. So I guess they must be pretty darn good at hiding it.

QuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2But if you can elaborate on that it would help me understand better. It is amazing how many people are like that in the corporate world.In practice I don't think that there are that many people who are either slightly sociopathic or narcissistic, but people who are slightly sociopathic or narcissistic actually seem to do better in some corporate environments. I feel guilty about stabbing someone in the back. Someone who feels less guilty than me about clawing over bodies to get to the top is more likely to win a one on one political knife-fight.QuoteMakes me wonder how they deal with their families and friends or if they even have any.If you have enough money and power, you can buy friends and family. Sad but true.QuoteEven more scary is, do I have friends and family like that which I do not know of since they hide it from me.Probably not. Satan doesn't try to hide his evil. He makes evil look good and seductive so that you join him. The devil doesn't come to you with horns and a pitchfork. He comes to you smiling with a business suit, a firm handshake and a smile. What was really fun and scary about the conversation was that he wasn't trying to hide the fact that he was a corporate sociopath, he was trying to get me to join him in becoming a corporate sociopath, and the really fun and scary thing was that he was really convincing. The offer that he made was that he just wanted me to follow him around for a week, and then I'd understand what he was doing and why. He was right, that's why I needed to get away from him.QuotePeople like that cannot grow if they show their personality to their superiors. So I guess they must be pretty darn good at hiding it.Absolutely wrong. He had nothing to hide from his bosses. His superiors were probably more sociopathic than he was. It wasn't that he had to hide his the fact that he was a corporate sociopath, its the fact that his being a corporate sociopath was why he was promoted. That's why you have to be careful about the company that you work for. What Kacktoodles says about brainwashing is something called socialization. If you hanging around geeks, you start becoming a geek. If you start hanging around corporate sociopaths, you start becoming one. If you put me in the right environment, you can turn me into one really nasty piece of work, that's why it's really important for me to be around people that I respect rather than people I don't.Also wolves are only dangerous in a crowd of sheep. A wolf is much less dangerous around other wolves.

Quote If you put me in the right environment, you can turn me into one really nasty piece of work, that's why it's really important for me to be around people that I respect rather than people I don't.Also wolves are only dangerous in a crowd of sheep. A wolf is much less dangerous around other wolves.The whole Stanford Prison Experiment sort of proves that. People question the scientific nature of the experimental settings, nevertheless the results of the experiment speak for themselves. I have worked on a project where everyone in the management (including the project leads were pricks) and the funny part is that a lot of them were not pricks until being put in those positions. It was almost like they got the message that if you do not toe the line you wont be allowed to be in this upper league. At one point I was offered a sub-team-lead position on this project since I identified with the fellow developers and had a lot of clout. I declined much to the amazement of my team lead. The process is very viscious and designed to strip one of their humanity. Also the ones to sell their soul then spend an inordinate amount of time and effort in convincing that the problem lies on the other side which makes them even more viscious since they want to justify their actions. The whole process is totally amazing. There is no way to protect yourself unless you have your own clout and refuse to join the game which in turn only increases your suffering. I left that project despite a paycut becoz it was just too much to play that game over 2 years and also my leaving killed the influence of one of these gangsters(least popular who got the blame for my leaving) which gave me no end of satisfaction.

Twofish,Since you are a US citizen, and you enjoy science and research, why did you not work for any of the government labs. I would think that is more like a grad student life, minus the pressure and with much more attractive salary. In many aspects that job seems much more attractive than that of a tenure track professor who has to work like a dog for tenure. Even a full professor has to care about funding and grants/teaching pesky undergrads and other such nonsense.

QuoteOriginally posted by: EEGradTwofish,Since you are a US citizen, and you enjoy science and research, why did you not work for any of the government labs.Because government lab jobs are hard to get, they don't pay quite as well as industry, and perhaps most importantly I'd rather have something on my gravestone than "he built a better hydrogen bomb." One other thing is that the case of Wen Ho Lee really scared the heck out of me. If I was at Los Alamos building better hydrogen bombs, then I think I might get into some trouble if I write a blog saying, "I think it's a good thing for the world if China gets more powerful, and by the way, let me tell you what I was working on today at the lab....."The fact that I have a mixed and complicated national identity is a seriously bad thing if you work at Los Alamos building a better hydrogen bomb. Every wonders if you are an agent of the Communist Party and the People's Liberation Army, and if they get it into their heads that you are (see Wen Ho Lee) you end up in solitary confinement in a federal prison. It's a seriously *good* to have a mixed and complicated national identity if you work for a multinational corporation. If I get up in Wall Street and say "I want China to be rich!!!" everyone else there nods their heads and says "so do we!!!!" If people end up thinking that I am a secret agent of the Communist Party and the People's Liberation Army then there will be a mile of people in line trying to wine and dine me to see if I could introduce them to someone to talk about a business deal.QuoteI would think that is more like a grad student life, minus the pressure and with much more attractive salary. In many aspects that job seems much more attractive than that of a tenure track professor who has to work like a dog for tenure. Even a full professor has to care about funding and grants/teaching pesky undergrads and other such nonsense.It's not a bad job, but there aren't that many openings, and what openings there are have something to do either directly or indirectly with building better hydrogen bombs, which is why the government massively put money in physics in the first place.

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: EEGradTwofish,Since you are a US citizen, and you enjoy science and research, why did you not work for any of the government labs.Because government lab jobs are hard to get, they don't pay quite as well as industry, and perhaps most importantly I'd rather have something on my gravestone than "he built a better hydrogen bomb." You say you can become the CEO of a fortune 500 company if you want, or the head trader of a major investment bank if you want, but you say that government jobs are hard to get??? And government labs do a lot more (very interesting and valuable things) than build H-Bombs...

QuoteOriginally posted by: MC81You say you can become the CEO of a fortune 500 company if you want, or the head trader of a major investment bank if you want, but you say that government jobs are hard to get???I said that was part of me that believes this. There's another part of me that tells me to calm down since it's not going to happen. There's also the paranoid cynical part of me that points out that people whisper into my ear that I *can* be a CEO or head trader so that I don't rock the boat and make life difficult for CEO's or head traders. From time to time, I hear voices that tell me that I can be a CEO, and I when I turn around I see Ronald Reagan and Maggie Thatcher.But yes research positions in national labs were hard to get when I was job hunting. Now this was talking in the situation when I had to make some crucial career decisions in the 1990's. Thing might change. As with tenured academic positions, if you know of someone that is hiring right now, just PM their contact information and I'll look at it.QuoteAnd government labs do a lot more (very interesting and valuable things) than build H-Bombs...They do, but there still is a big problem for me in that it's very hard to get out of a silo. There is an imbalance between supply and demand, which means that if you don't work in the field that the job application calls for, you aren't going to get the job. In my situation, I'm not going to get a job working on green technology, because my Ph.D. isn't in environmental physics and there are a lot of people who are. My Ph.D. is in supernova simulation, and the people that I know that get government lab jobs, end up working at Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, or Lawerence-Livermore. I know a lot of people that actually do build hydrogen bombs for a living. It's not a bad life, and it's actually a lot, lot less stressful than what I do. There are jobs at ORNL and LLNL in my field that don't directly involve building hydrogen bombs, merely study things like the hydrogen bomb makers find useful, but for those I needed to go through post-doc heck, although not junior faculty hell.One major difference between academia and industrial is that academia tends to silo people more Also it's important to understand why you are being paid. Again all this is past. The future may be different, and if I'm wrong and it *is* not that hard for me to get a job at a government lab, let me know and I'll consider it.

QuoteOriginally posted by: EEGradTwofish,Since you are a US citizen, and you enjoy science and research, why did you not work for any of the government labs. . because even the govt labs don't just hire any phd/citizen who walks in off the street. they only take the top 70% of phds/citizens.

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishThe fact that I have a mixed and complicated national identity. toofish, are you admiting that you are not a 100% loyal American like you SWORE when you took the citizenship oath?! Are you admiting you are a bad spy risk? FBI -- are you tracking this????

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishBut yes research positions in national labs were hard to get when I was job hunting. Now this was talking in the situation when I had to make some crucial career decisions in the 1990's. Thing might change. As with tenured academic positions, if you know of someone that is hiring right now, just PM their contact information and I'll look at it.Right now the government is on a hiring spree. Also I am surprised that getting these positions is hard, because so few citizens pursue PhD in the first place. All the citizens I knew were able to get positions in MIT Lincoln labs/Sandia/MITRE even though their work was nothing spectacular.

QuoteOriginally posted by: deepvaluetoofish, are you admiting that you are not a 100% loyal American like you SWORE when you took the citizenship oath?! I was born in the United States. I am quite fiercely loyal and patriotic toward the United States, but I do resent defending my loyalty and patriotism against jerks.QuoteAre you admiting you are a bad spy risk? FBI -- are you tracking this????I'm actually not a spy risk, because I have a decent sense of ethics. However, I've said things that could be used against me if people want to make my life hell, and that's looks to me like what happened with Wen Ho Lee. Part of the reason I do like the world of finance and multi-national corporations is that there are so many people from so many different parts of the world, that no one really cares what your political loyalties are as long as you make money.