Hi,I'm very interested about moving to algo trading development. I would be very grateful if you could speak up if I have chances at all, here's my short description:-MSc in CS-Over 4 years of commercial experience as a software engineer, mainly using Java (yeah, I know, C++ is a golden standard in that area....), but also I have a pretty good knowledge of C#, VB for App and C++ -good knowledge and experience with software projects lifecycle, design, management, testing, design patterns-good knowledge of databases (however mainly IBM DB2, not too much Oracle)-I'm working for IBM since 2007 in well known projects (don't want to mention them here)-I have completed postgraduate studies in the area of Analysis of Financial Markets and Advisory Investment ==> I have some basic overall knowledge about capital markets-I'm passionate about building/testing/optimizing mechanical trading systems which I'm using for my private purposes for futures on one of the emerging market -my math skills need to be refreshed, however I'm already working on refreshing those skills (differentials, probability, statistics, numerical methods...)-pretty good knowledge of theory of algorithms-I'm ready to start CQF-I'm almost 29 years old-I'm really really passionate if can see that what I'm doing makes sense to me and really think that working with algo trading development would be something greatMany thanks for any comments.

Sell side derivatives maths and courses are mostly irrelevant for buy side jobs like hedge funds and algo trading. The only questions you will be asked for algo trading are "Are you an expert C++ coder" and "Is your statistics/time-series really good"? Everything else you will be expected to learn as needed. Your financial analysis class won't make a difference. Your mechanical trading system will be a great response to "Why do you think you will be a good algo trader", not only for its performance but also for the fact that you have the aptitude to connect a computer program to data feed, execution, etc.

Get a job in the industry that's all it doesn't even really matter what your doing as long as its a financial company. Try applying for smaller securities firms or broker dealers those will be much easier to land a job in than say a hedge fund or large IB. Once you get any name on your resume it will be easier for recruiters to shop your resume around. Learn as much as you can able FIX and FAST check out http://www.fixprotocol.org. With a decent understanding of FIX and FAST that should be able to land you any where in the industry. Once you get your foot in the door it should be easier to branch out at that point. Try to avoid reading finance books they will just slow you down and are pretty useless for anyone not yet in the industry trying to get into HF algo trading. Focus on C++ and Realtime/low latency network and distributed systems development. Best of luck!!

We're recruiting algotrading developers right now, and you seem quite far away from what they want, to the extent that I have to ask why you think that speciality is really for you ?True, there exist some Java algotraders, not sure what would happen if I sent them a CV of someone who couldn't do C++, probably would not be pretty. There seem to be more C# ATs, but that is not to be read as saying there are many.Certainly the CQF will help you get into quant development but you'd have to do the optional (but free) C++ module, and even then it ill be hard work, and although it is probably the nearest to an algotrading C++ course out there, that's mostly because the others don't even try.Worried about the "MSc", implies it is British ?ArthurDent sets a high, but not unrealistic standard. I'd add NLP and DSP to that, as well as game theory and market microstructure. In theory I could place someone for real money who is really very good at handling extraordinary large data sets , but I'm pessimistic there. But if you did work on IBM's projects in that area, I might be persuaded to listen.If you're at the December 10 CQF info session we ought to talk.

I think AT is for me because I'm passionate about mechanical systems (you may laugh at it ). I started to build them for my private purposes and due to quite high inefficiency (in comparison to well developed markets) + hard work on my side on Polish futures market I noticed it's a serious way of earning real money. Obviously having programming skills helps with building the mechanical systems and I know that combining that knowledge with the financial world is a really fascinating thing for me. Almost last two years (when I become interested with that topic) I spent most of my free time on that. Although I don't have a long experience here I already did real money on it, not only reading theoretical books. I also realize that there’s a very long long way to true AT…From what I have already read here, plus some comments from you guys, I can say that I will need some time to prepare better to even be ready to send out a CV. And even that I'm already really intensively working on improving my skills in terms of algo trading I realize that it's quite possible that never no one offer me any job with it. But I don't care, what I learn is mine, in the same time I have still a stable job. I don’t want to blame myself just because I haven’t even tried. Anyway I want to spend on improving that skills my whole life I just love it!I'm not stuck with Java, although this is my main programming language currently. I did a lot C++ at the university, but that was a long time ago therefore I need to refresh it and make it really shining (open source project could be a good thing here). Maybe I'm wrong but think that within few months I can be pretty good at it.I did MSc in Poland, therefore I suppose it means nothing for you.As for the IBM currently I'm working in development creating totally new solution (within DB2 portfolio) => don't have an expertise with extraordinary large data sets.Regarding CQF I'm thinking rather about June 2010 slot (I prefer to be already better prepared for that to gain more from it).The bottom line is that I suppose you won't view me as a serious candidate for now or even for some future. Nevertheless I will keep doing that, developing my skills as passion

I'm glad to see you are working on systems, AT is an applied science, and you will learn a lot that day.However it is not enough to make money (though it helps a lot), risk management and maximisation of profit within constrained capital also are good things to know.I don't doubt you can get competent at C++, however in my experience AT employers do ask really tough C/C++ O/S questions, but I support your idea of just fighting the thing until you get it, as there are no shortcuts to C++Yes, I have an incomplete knowledge of Polish MScs, but I do not have a negative view.The bottom line is that I suppose you won't view me as a serious candidate for now or even for some future. It's not my job to say what people want to hear, but what I believe they need to know. Yes, it will take time, not because I believe you are not smart but because many other smart people want to do this, and you have to beat a useful % of them.Nevertheless I will keep doing that, developing my skills as passion Passion and commitment are vital to this line of work.

Is knowledge of FIX and FAST really important in terms of minimum entry level to AT world?

Neither FAST not FIX nor indeed FPML are essential, they can help of course but many roles do not require them.Algorithmic trading these days is a more "mature" activity in terms of software teams and development lifecycles.That means you will often find there is someone who is wise in exchange/broker specific connectivity, sometimes these people are not even directly part of the algorithmic trading group.Currently we are seeking people with deep IP connectivity skills, ie "below" FX et al. The idea being that their job is to get the packets there faster, and it is someone else's problem to work out what goes in them.So there are jobs that use protocols and standard, and jobs that don't. If you get the chance to learn them, then I'd strongly counsel you to take it, but don't rule yourself out if you don't.However the nature of AT is more emphasis on detail than in other work, which means that although your focus might not include FIX, or signal processing, or market micro structure, everything that you don't know, hurts you.Thus borderline obsession on certain details benefits you, but you need a good skim of the whole process.

No, FIX/FAST/etc... - everyone can learn them on the job for any particular exchange... Some people ask about them on interview, but if you don't have previous exp. in the area - why would you know them? And if you do and want to excel at interview then learn Itch/Ouch/TradElect/etc. in addition and there are tens of protocols more. Don't litter your brains with them without necessity, it is not a rocket science. Better learn C++/STL/boost etc. for development role...

When I look to hire guys in this area, I look for two things: smarts, and passion / enthusiasm. Neither of these can be learned. Sure there are math and cs reqs, but any smart guy can pick these up (and if they want to be in the area, already have). And all the market microstructure, game theory, etc can similarly be picked up. But unless you are extremely sharp and switched on, and love the stuff, it just doesn't work.

MC81 illustrates a surprisingly common job spec I get for entry level algos, "we just want someone smart". The idea being that I filter out those that aren't, which is fun. I went through a phase of asking hard questions, but now I just chat to them, seeing how they think.I didn't put that in the earlier comments because I focused on things you could do something about, and aside from reading Douglas Adams there's not much advice I can give.

QuoteOriginally posted by: DominicConnorI didn't put that in the earlier comments because I focused on things you could do something aboutA young person cannot change whether or not he is smart. But is there anything he can do to at least find out whether he is smart? Or at least "smart" meaning talented in whatever way those employers are looking for?If there is one fact that most people don't seem to know about themselves, it is how dumb they are. And I am also not sure whether the few smart people I meet know they are smart. But it is hard to make good plans and decisions (pursuant to the suggestions in this thread) without this piece of information.

if you were smart, you would not want to get into algo trading. du–uh.

That's a valid question farmer, and I will share how I try to work this out.Firstly we need to discriminate between merely being bright, and the specific abilities necessary for algotrading.Some smart people are what I call "good at algebra", a good number being vastly better at this than me, or indeed the hiring managers.Of course you need to be good at maths to do algotrading, but it is not enough.It needs to "mean something" to you, you must be very good at applying any maths you learn in a different context to the one you learned it.For instance, markets behave in some ways like trees in the wind, and the maths of mean reversion, resonance, etc transfer quite nicely, as does catastrophe theory to the way they fall over...I assume 99% of people here understand this, some may will regard it as trivial, but did it ever occur to you ?Probably not, but a simple objective test is how often you've thought about using game theory in picking up women, or decision tress when arguing with them once they've moved into your house When in a supermarket, do you find yourself thinking about portfolio optimisation in the range of goods on sale ?I actually don't care what maths you use to solve what problems, but the test is how often you think that way.You must also be a hacker.A good % of the people in this line of work have done things to computers that the person who set the rules would have objected to.Some have done this with considerable distinction...One very well paid US role we have for a sort of quant developer in algorithmic trading requires them to have done things to network packets that would get your fired at most large banks.That's not so much criminality as a mindset of things that get in your way are bugs, and security is merely another defect in the system.Undocumented features, things that shouldn't work but do, and APIs used in ways that the manual specifically says not to use.For example when working at IBM labs, we got a snotty PTR response that said it was inherently impossible to subclass Windows in a different process.By reflex, a dozen of us raced to find out how to do that, even though it was no part of our job.It took 5 whole versions of Windows for MS to (mostly) stop the techniques that came out of that, indeed one reason Vista is such a dog, are the methods they used If you think that is a juvenile way to behave, or simply can't work out why one would waste your time doing that, don't bother ever sending me your CV for an algorithmic trading job, no matter how good at C++, signal processing, et al you think you are.Some % of algotrading is obsessing about details so small that you can never even be sure that it is really there. You must have a mindset that is happy to use tools that help you, but you are in not emotionally dependant upon them."emotionally dependant" was not the first way I wrote that last sentence, but it seems best to fit the defect replacement model that I have.Some people are clearly "scared" of leaving documented programming interfaces, or using maths that they believe are unsound or do not fully understand. I sometimes articulate that as needing their hands held, which is not just a term for lack of ability but lack of courage as well. Of course few people die in algotrading, but you have to be able to work on your own, and you must have confidence that you can "cope". That well founded confidence can only come from knowing how things work. That's not just computers, but a general view that things are processes, even if you don't know what the process is.I do slightly disagree with farmer that people don't know how their general intelligence stacks up.Of course they will be unsure exactly where they fit in the distribution, but I think I can define a useful, yet simple self test...How often have you mastered something that your peers regard as mystifying ?This is not only a measure of "smart" but that you don't just beat your peers at exams. Of course to get into this, you will have got through some stiff papers, but that is not enough.Can you learn a new, hard thing without someone explaining it to you ?I hope you will note from all this that I've kept away from saying you must be good at X and Y....even C++Some ATs don't use C++.But even then, they ask for it, because C++ is almost always self taught, and difficult. It punishes weakness without even the concept of mercy.Yes, I know I teach C++, bit that's 60 hours of being told what to do, you are only a C++ developer when you build something yourself.That's because at entry level, a good % of hiring managers just want "smart" people as I've partially defined above. I am of course only reflecting my limited understanding of poorly articulated requirements.

I think that a good question could be also "have you ever made a real money on the market?". Math, many programming languages, PhDs, lots of theory -- all this sound very nice. But for me personally instead of doing PhD the real exciting thing is finding my own place on the market, where I can make real money. Exciting thing is finding my own way for exploring new strategies, inefficiencies on the markets (yeah I know -- in Poland it's easier than on S&P ). Of course doing PhD just because of passion would be OK for me, but I would not find so much perseverance to do it only for CV purposes.Then wrapping those ideas in a form of computer strategy is a beautiful thing. Actually computer is inseparable chain in that game. So having excellent computer skills for sure is a key thing in the XXI century. Luckily I love programming and computers.For example, learning C++ as a kind of art for art's sake must be terribly boring I suppose. After all AT is an applied science -- theory is necessary but to solve practical problems, not for contemplation. Knowing only theory doesn't help me too much in making money. So yes, I feel extremely motivated in deepening my skills. But whenever I'm doing that (and I'm doing that almost as intensively as I can) I want to see that this can be used/can help somehow to solve practical problem. Maybe I'm ignorant, especially in the eyes of experienced quants, but please forgive me that then. I’m only a person finding out if there would be a place in AT world for me. So I would like to know the truth, even if that hurts.And sorry for my poor English – I just know it on the level which allows me to easily read the books and communicate with people. I’m not going to be a Shakespeare successor That’s a real example of learning English to make this “an applied language”