Dear all:Although I like to think of myself as a quant, I still know little about the actual job market in the US. I try to monitor the relevant sources (books of Mark Joshi, Brett Jiu, forums, etc), but I still don’t feel informed about the specifics of real jobs. Right now, I am unemployed and trying to get a better idea of what to do next. I decided to ask you, the more experienced colleagues, for some advice.About myself: M.S. Computational Finance, PhD in Statistics (May 2009). Since I took all the quant-related courses across all departments, I think my degree is a close match to PhD in Computational Finance. Have experience with Matlab, S+/R, SAS, C++, although I can’t deny that my programming skills are somewhat “academic”. After graduation, I spent a few months with a large insurance company and got laid off in November. What I’d like to do: to leverage my quantitative skills as fully as possible. By “quantitative skills” I mean skills in such areas as Time Series, Machine Learning, Interest Rate Modeling, Market Microstructure, and so on. While many companies declare the need for such skills, my goal is to find a place where a PhD LEVEL of knowledge is a MUST. That was the problem with my last employer: the job I was assigned could be easily done by a smart college graduate with a little quant knowledge. In the end, I got quite frustrated. I take it my employer also asked himself why he should overpay me for the skills and education that are not in use anyway. I know I can’t count on applying 100% of the things I learned at graduate school. However, I definitely need something more challenging than a job that can be done by someone with a B.S. or even M.S. Are my expectations realistic? If your answer is yes, I need some general tips on where to look for such positions and under what job titles they typically appear. Is my skill set ok or I need to work on something? For instance, I’m thinking of using the current jobless spell to get some C++ certification. On the other hand, I am afraid that a position of “quant developer” is way too close to the “smart college graduate” level I mentioned above. Here on Wilmott someone said that “quant developer” is just a flashy name for a good old software developer with little knowledge beyond programming. Hence, by becoming a better programmer, I may actually shoot myself in the foot…?I hope I explained what I’m trying to find out. Thank you very much for any relevant advice.Regards,Nikkei

try applying to a quant shop like D.E. Shawthey love PhDs

Thank you for your reply.Of course I'm aware of such obvious choices like DE Shaw, Ren Tech and such like,but they are not that many.Actually, I'm looking for a more general advice rather than particular company names.For instance, how do I explain what I want to do to a headhunter or a hiring managerusing the terms that do not make me sound "academic"? What are the target job titlesthat I should mention?

i would not recommend using recruiters, in my experience it is a pure waste of time, at least for entry level positionswhenever possible, apply directly with companies you're interested in or use your social network contacts if anyfinancial experience is not a prerequisite with some large funds as long as you can position yourself as a talented candidatein my humble opinion, you should leverage any awards that you have, even remotely relevant such as best paper awards or scholarshipswhat was your PhD about?

I cannot think of and have never seen any finance job which couldn't be done by a smart undegrad (in terms of level of math, finance or IT skills required). Especially now when people don't care that much about structured/exotic products and banks make most of the money in flow business

QuoteOriginally posted by: drews26I cannot think of and have never seen any finance job which couldn't be done by a smart undegrad (in terms of level of math, finance or IT skills required). Especially now when people don't care that much about structured/exotic products and banks make most of the money in flow businessWhy do you think DEShaw Hires so many PhDs ?

QuoteOriginally posted by: chaoticramblerQuoteOriginally posted by: drews26I cannot think of and have never seen any finance job which couldn't be done by a smart undegrad (in terms of level of math, finance or IT skills required). Especially now when people don't care that much about structured/exotic products and banks make most of the money in flow businessWhy do you think DEShaw Hires so many PhDs ?why?

QuoteOriginally posted by: drews26QuoteOriginally posted by: chaoticramblerQuoteOriginally posted by: drews26I cannot think of and have never seen any finance job which couldn't be done by a smart undegrad (in terms of level of math, finance or IT skills required). Especially now when people don't care that much about structured/exotic products and banks make most of the money in flow businessWhy do you think DEShaw Hires so many PhDs ?why?I don't know, I am asking you since you seem to have some experience. I am a newbie.

QuoteOriginally posted by: chaoticramblerQuoteOriginally posted by: drews26QuoteOriginally posted by: chaoticramblerQuoteOriginally posted by: drews26I cannot think of and have never seen any finance job which couldn't be done by a smart undegrad (in terms of level of math, finance or IT skills required). Especially now when people don't care that much about structured/exotic products and banks make most of the money in flow businessWhy do you think DEShaw Hires so many PhDs ?why?I don't know, I am asking you since you seem to have some experience. I am a newbie.Well, I don't know either. Never worked there. I do know that they hire PhDs but undergrads as well. I'm under impression that they are mostly looking for programming experience though (being involved in algo trading arms race). Their application form asks mostly about IT experience and is pretty weird if you ask me (at least used to be few years ago when I looked at it), but I'm sure they have their reasons. I guess they are looking for IMO winners and PhDs just because it increases the chances of hiring somebody smart - time saving, not because job duties (whatever they are) require it. Once again I've never worked there and don't personally know anybody who did, so take whatever I say with a grain of sault (maybe they're doing rocket sience after all).I did work in a few places (both major sell-side and buy-side) and based on what I observed can't think of any job which a smart math/science/engineering undergraduate won't be able to do. My other observation is that highly structured/exotic products are not popular anymore (at least for now), and that further decreases the need for "stochastic calculus" quants. As I said a lion's share of major banks' profit comes from their flow business - at least in 2008 & 2009 (due to decreased competition - no Bear, Lehman, Merrill anymore, but also due to clients' flight to simpler products which they are able to comprehend - think a typical pension fund, insurance company, mutual fund - in general they are not very sophisticated)Maybe some quant funds do use some hardcore statistics and do need PhD level knowledge in certain niche areas, but as I said I have limited knowledge of those, and even if they are those are in the minority.So I still stick to my point that the majority of finance jobs can be done by a smart undergrads (job duty-wise)

in my humble opinion, you should leverage any awards that you have, even remotely relevant such as best paper awards or scholarshipswhat was your PhD about? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++I used some state-of-art statistical methods to analyze the performance of US equity mutual funds.

QuoteOriginally posted by: NikkeiDear all:Although I like to think of myself as a quant, I still know little about the actual job market in the US. I try to monitor the relevant sources (books of Mark Joshi, Brett Jiu, forums, etc), but I still don’t feel informed about the specifics of real jobs. Right now, I am unemployed and trying to get a better idea of what to do next. I decided to ask you, the more experienced colleagues, for some advice.About myself: M.S. Computational Finance, PhD in Statistics (May 2009). Since I took all the quant-related courses across all departments, I think my degree is a close match to PhD in Computational Finance. Have experience with Matlab, S+/R, SAS, C++, although I can’t deny that my programming skills are somewhat “academic”. After graduation, I spent a few months with a large insurance company and got laid off in November. What I’d like to do: to leverage my quantitative skills as fully as possible. By “quantitative skills” I mean skills in such areas as Time Series, Machine Learning, Interest Rate Modeling, Market Microstructure, and so on. While many companies declare the need for such skills, my goal is to find a place where a PhD LEVEL of knowledge is a MUST. That was the problem with my last employer: the job I was assigned could be easily done by a smart college graduate with a little quant knowledge. In the end, I got quite frustrated. I take it my employer also asked himself why he should overpay me for the skills and education that are not in use anyway. I know I can’t count on applying 100% of the things I learned at graduate school. However, I definitely need something more challenging than a job that can be done by someone with a B.S. or even M.S. Are my expectations realistic? If your answer is yes, I need some general tips on where to look for such positions and under what job titles they typically appear. Is my skill set ok or I need to work on something? For instance, I’m thinking of using the current jobless spell to get some C++ certification. On the other hand, I am afraid that a position of “quant developer” is way too close to the “smart college graduate” level I mentioned above. Here on Wilmott someone said that “quant developer” is just a flashy name for a good old software developer with little knowledge beyond programming. Hence, by becoming a better programmer, I may actually shoot myself in the foot…?I hope I explained what I’m trying to find out. Thank you very much for any relevant advice.Regards,NikkeiIMHO, quant developer is a good starting point for quants . Also with algo trading "coding skills" are non trivial. Stuff like parallel programming are non trivial programming and will be important in the near future if not now

IMHO, quant developer is a good starting point for quants . Also with algo trading "coding skills" are non trivial. Stuff like parallel programming are non trivial programming and will be important in the near future if not now ) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++I'm not sure what you mean by "starting point". For all I know, "quant development" is a separate occupation of IT variety, takes a lot to learn,and, once again, has little to do with quantitative analysis and modeling. Even if I managed to "start" as a quantdeveloper, I don't see myself progressing to something more exciting. Even Dominic in his Job Guide talks about how to spot bad jobs, and one of the dangers he mentioned is being hired as a quant and getting stuck in IT-like position afterwards.

Networking is the key.Having all the knowledge and skills wouldn't help you land your dream job( which would need half your skill but pay would be nice).The problem as you already know is the tough job market.Openings are very few. Someone who has half the technical skills that you have but networks twice as harder will have almost two times your chance to land the job.This is a classical geek mistake. Quantitative Research is not done inside your study room surronded by books.Its done in the companies and if that means making friends with the manager who is the alumni of your school then that's the way.

The fact that I want to implement my potential doesn't make me a geek.I know about networking, and that's exactly how I got my first job after graduation,acting entirely on my own. Btw, I communicated with tens of headhunters, and none of them was helpful - they didn't even manage to get me initial interviews, not to mention an actual position.So, landing "a job" is not the main problem, but getting the right fit is. For instance, I don't seeany point in networking with insurance industry people any more. That's the kind of "general advice" I hopeto get here.

Nikkei, if you want to use your PhD shouldn't you be lloking for an academic position? Sorry for playing Devil's advocate...