TwoFish,The networking alone is not useful - you are thinking in the typical meritocratic way that PhDs think - you think that in order for someone to give you a leg up you have to have something to offer them right away - and the problem is that if you are not part of the club you are just seen as an outsider trying to schmooze, and thus will be looked down on as the math geek trying to be what he is not - cool.IF you have the MBA you can have nothing to bring to the table, but if an alumnus sees something oin you that reminds them of themselves, or some potential, or really just sees you as part of the club, you will be helped - it's called playing off of human behavioural biases, and it can actually work. The truth is as long as you have the deadweight of a PhD around your shoulders you will hve difficulty doing anything really interesting in this world. I personally believe tht they should make it much harder to get into a PhD. Probably only 30 universities in the US should be allowed to confer them, with a maximum class size of 4 in each subject... I am just throwing numbers out there, but really PhDs are just another way the US exploits people from the third world... Quant jobs are another way people are exploited from the third world.Down with PhDs!!!! Reach for the stars!!!! And most of all REMEMBER it is better to be the one leveraging resources than the the resources being leveraged.

Take a read at this: http://taxidiary.blogspot.comWell, I guess all that matters really is what determines your happiness, kudos to ChicagoGuy for that piece of advice.

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999TwoFish,The networking alone is not useful - you are thinking in the typical meritocratic way that PhDs think - you think that in order for someone to give you a leg up you have to have something to offer them right away - and the problem is that if you are not part of the club you are just seen as an outsider trying to schmooze, and thus will be looked down on as the math geek trying to be what he is not - cool.IF you have the MBA you can have nothing to bring to the table, but if an alumnus sees something oin you that reminds them of themselves, or some potential, or really just sees you as part of the club, you will be helped - it's called playing off of human behavioural biases, and it can actually work. The truth is as long as you have the deadweight of a PhD around your shoulders you will hve difficulty doing anything really interesting in this world. I personally believe tht they should make it much harder to get into a PhD. Probably only 30 universities in the US should be allowed to confer them, with a maximum class size of 4 in each subject... I am just throwing numbers out there, but really PhDs are just another way the US exploits people from the third world... Quant jobs are another way people are exploited from the third world.Down with PhDs!!!! Reach for the stars!!!! And most of all REMEMBER it is better to be the one leveraging resources than the the resources being leveraged.You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Phd's simply exist to create quants. Phd's are meant to be a period under which one undertakes unique and original study ("and hence do something ineteresting in the world"). If you just want to get a job a move "up" in the financial world as quick as possible then, fair enough, don't do a Phd.It seems like you obviously did not enjoy your Phd, which is a shame, but many people do.

They're called math freaks HungryQuant - I am not one of them, and dislike being categorized alongside them.

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999The networking alone is not useful - you are thinking in the typical meritocratic way that PhDs thinkI'm thinking quite *anti*-meritocratic. Sales and marketing is a skill. Also to effectively network you have to meet *lots* of people. Quoteyou think that in order for someone to give you a leg up you have to have something to offer them right away - and the problem is that if you are not part of the club you are just seen as an outsider trying to schmooze, and thus will be looked down on as the math geek trying to be what he is not - cool.I've never had that problem. Also, I've found it to be almost useless to schmooze with people that are very, very senior to me. They can't give anything useful because I can't give them anything useful. The people that have been the most useful networking contacts are peers, people slightly senior, or people junior. When I go to Harvard Business School, I *can* offer the business school students there something useful, because I have seen the inside of a Wall Street firm and they haven't.Also, there are a lot of clubs. If one won't let you join, screw them, and find some place else. The other thing is that I haven't found the business school clubs to be closed. The reason that I don't find it difficult to get into Harvard or Columbia is that the b-school *wants* me to be there and tell the students how Wall Street works.QuoteIF you have the MBA you can have nothing to bring to the table, but if an alumnus sees something oin you that reminds them of themselves, or some potential, or really just sees you as part of the club, you will be helped - it's called playing off of human behavioural biases, and it can actually work.That's not how the network game works. The reason that alumni networks or MBA networks are useful is because they get you information. I've found that networks are useless for getting preferential treatment because there's no particular reason to pick me over the tens of thousands of other MIT/UTexas alumni out there. Where networks *are* useful is for finding jobs and information.QuoteThe truth is as long as you have the deadweight of a PhD around your shoulders you will hve difficulty doing anything really interesting in this world.If you want me to be blunt, I don't think the problems that you are having have anything to do with having the Ph.D., and if you have had a Harvard MBA, you'd have exactly the same sorts of problems you are having now. Part of the art of sales is to convince the client that you have something to offer them. If you think that you are a lousy person that totally messed up their life, then you shouldn't be surprised if the rest of the world comes to that conclusion and ignores you.QuoteI am just throwing numbers out there, but really PhDs are just another way the US exploits people from the third world... Quant jobs are another way people are exploited from the third world.All of business is about mutual exploitation. I use you. You use me. You are screwing me over, but I'm also screwing you over, and since we are both consenting adults, it's kind of fun. People are making tons of money off my work, and I'm getting table scraps. But since I'm getting what I want, I think it's cool.

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999They're called math freaks HungryQuant - I am not one of them, and dislike being categorized alongside them.we'll have to disagree here my firend, maths is ace

And that is why you are a support quant Hungry.

People go into a Phd because they are not ready to face the world. After a couple of years they are mostly sick and cant wait to finish and that is why you see so many fantasising about quant finance.

QuoteOriginally posted by: plusPeople go into a Phd because they are not ready to face the world. After a couple of years they are mostly sick and cant wait to finish and that is why you see so many fantasising about quant finance.Completely agree with the quote above. I would've never gotten PhD if I could do it all over again. My view is that if one did undergrad in US/UK and is a citizen/permanent resident (if not there's a whole lot of immigration issues which force one to make non-optimal career decisions) analyst in S&T position is the best start of one's career. If one can't get in I think he/she should go to the best place (name recognition-wise) one can find, work for 2-3 years, then leave, do an MBA and try again (now to get an Associates in S&T role). If still no luck I would shoot for a role as close (physically) to the desk as possible. Even if you can't get junior trader/structurer job any MO/product control/market risk job will have some interaction with traders, so one should build a relationship and try to transfer internally. Desk quant may not be such a bad job if you're physically close to traders, but you may be pigeonholed as a math geek, for this reason alone I think MO/product control/risk jobs are better than desk quant. The worst jobs I know of are quant in risk analytics and model validation quant jobs. You don't learn anything about the real market, you'll probably never talk to a trader. Desk quants and market risk people will try to avoid you as much as possible (the same way as everybody tries to minimize their interactions with the audit, talking to whom is a pure waste of time). So the nature of the job by itself will have a negative impact on your networking opportunities through no fault of yours, and whatever you learn will be completely useless outside of your line of work. But unfortunately (at least in big banks) these 2 groups I mentioned have the highest number of PhDs...judge for yourself...

EscapeArtist999, the richest people out there are not investment bankers or traders, they are entrepreneurs.if you are really unhappy about how much money you make, quit your job and start your own business.obviously, you are not guaranteed to succeed but why should somebody give you such guarantee anywhere else?btw, there is an old saying: its very easy to get rich if this is the only thing you want from your life. p.s.: i do not understand why anybody here would want to work for a bank; there are a lot of opportunities in hedge funds,work life balance is much better and, although i do not have any official statistics, hedge funds pay significantly more at least until the MD level

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999And that is why you are a support quant Hungry.What the duece is a support quant ? and more to the point , how the hell do you know what I do ?

I guess you don't do FO support work (i.e. quant work at an IB) yet... Looks like you graduated from UCL in 08 with a PhD congrats. Lots of High freq jobs out there - maybe they can use applied topology.

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999I guess you don't do FO support work (i.e. quant work at an IB) yet... Looks like you graduated from UCL in 08 with a PhD congrats. Lots of High freq jobs out there - maybe they can use applied topology.!! afraid notBut luckily I taught alot of statistics and probability whilst I was there, which has been somewhat more useful

also I should probably update that CV its very old now, thanks for reminding me : )

I have an MBA and no numerical degree whatsoever, here is what I think about this topic; Moving forward, blue sky thinking is required for synergy, by thinking outside the box, and actioning early, we can win-win with a new paradigm. Professionalism here means that we need to maximize the leverage of our traction in the verticals to ensure continued competitiveness in all the silos. The action line streamlines the value added.Just kidding