QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentnames such as David Shaw or James Simons are well-known far outside of "the nerdy algo trading community". OK, if you name your own firm after yourself, and your firm is worth billions of dollars, people will know your name. But what are you known for? Are you known for you algorithms or your firm, or your billions? Does anybody know or use Shaw or Simons algorithms, or know anything about these people except that they are filthy rich?

if you like glory more than money, why are you reading wilmott? why not aps.org?

QuoteOriginally posted by: DominicConnorPossibly, the problems with low latency algotrading in Russia aren't that bad, earlier I spoke of the irrationality of choosing to work in Russia, but it is entirely rational to make use of the many smart cheap people there.If you're really serious about high frequency, low latency algotrading, then it's quite probable that you won't be running it from your bank's offices, but co-located in the exchange or broker.You then remotely control it, and even when you are running from your firm's own building, that can be done over a wire from pretty much anywhere.Analysis of tick data, algo development and backtesting can be done as well in Moscow as anywhere else.The optimum is to leverage talent wherever it can be be found, with labour price being a factor, rather than the main driver. If I was recruiting for a Russian bank (FX:shudder), I'd go for letting the traders live somewhere decent with Russian analysts working in Cuba, nice weather, no problems with visas, but they are still not free to work in the West, so staff turnover will be low.But...The problem of any arbitrage is that they are inherently unstable, and if you pay Russians (or Indians or Brazilians) less than they could get elsewhere, then many of them will be trying quite hard to move.Of course you right... but that's strange... and funny... people "who don't know a shit" like Tu160 says (and he is absolutely 100% right)... They want start from low latency and HFT... It's look like somebody in Troika read a nice book

QuoteOriginally posted by: tu160Regarding your algo-glory argument it's not gonna fly. Majority of people working in finance actually traded hard sciences glory for hard cash.Tu160, it's looks like you don't wonna "become famous as Albert Einstein" (c)

I seriously doubt that a person with a know how in this area would be willing to get back to Russia unless he will be offered a decent P/L cut from the strategy and an opportunity to run the project on his own w/o having your friend Alexandr involved.

QuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesQuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferent Does anybody know or use Shaw or Simons .............or know anything about these people except that they are filthy rich? ...why do you always extrapolate your ignorance on other people? As I said, both Simons and Shaw are well-known (not too you, obviously) for many projects outside of finance.

QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentAs I said, both Simons and Shaw are well-known (not too you, obviously) for many projects outside of finance. so you agree: they are known for projects OUTSIDE of finance, not for their alg trading.

to DominicConnorI appreciate your point of view very much. I am happy that you take part in our discussion.Although some statements about crimes, laws and infrastructure are true for the USA and other European countries too. Surely everybody knows about Harlem disctrict in New York or Brixton and South area in London. To be honest there are prisons and police all over the world.If you have money then you can feel yourself comfortable anywhere. For example if you have no money to pay for the lawyer advice in the USA then you are in the same conditions as in Russia or Iran, nobody will help you. I suppose it's not fair to claim Moscow the same as Teheran, Pyongyang etc.Btw Troika is a twenty years old company and they have learnt much for this period from western colleagues. To my mind this company works like a western company, so you may have there the same problems as anywhere else. But it's not a reason to miss opportunities in Russia.

QuoteOriginally posted by: DominicConnorPossibly, the problems with low latency algotrading in Russia aren't that bad, earlier I spoke of the irrationality of choosing to work in Russia, but it is entirely rational to make use of the many smart cheap people there.As for doing business in Russia:- Deutsche Bank (www.db.com) moved IT centre to Moscow and it works well.- UBS (www.ubs.com) outsourced IT operations to Moscow through Luxoft (www.luxoft.com) too.- CQG (www.cqg.com) has a number of software development centres across the country (Moscow, Zelenograd, Samara).- Orc Software AB (www.orcsoftware.com) provides powerful solutions for algorithmic trading, market making etc. This company has software development centres in Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.Russia becomes a part of the world economy not only as an oil supplier...P.S. If you need a talented manager to oursource your operations then you are welcome My profile is here http://ru.linkedin.com/in/starkov

Daniil, very good sales pitch... No very informative though and not very convincing. You can't really compare crime situation in London and Moscow - it is laughable!And yes, of course, good IT specialists can find work and feel relatively safe in Moscow like in all the examples you provided, but you miss the point completely. It is not the middle are of salary distribution, it is all about the tails. I wouldn't worry much about if I earn 5 k a month in Moscow - nobody would pay attention. But if you income is bigger than this - I don't even want to test any assumptions or promises - life is too precious. And too short for spending half of it fighting with Russian bureaucracy over mundane issues.No matter what country you take - there are always good points about it and there are always some objective measurements that favour it, but substitute Russia in your post with one of many other countries (say, Nicaragua) - what changes? Surely, many western companies outsource something in there - what does it prove?So, setting aside all the examples and assurances you provided, has anything been done in Russia to alleviate problems in areas as: corruption, bureaucracy, crime etc. etc... anything significant has been done? Or is there any hope to get anything done in future when, politically speaking, the country is turning into a very strange type of "democracy"?There are _some_ improvements, of course... there always are...

QuoteOriginally posted by: tu160To be honest I am not THAT pessimistic as Dominic regarding doing business in Russia. And Troika probably is the best Russian place. I don't know maybe you right... but from Russia it's not look so romantic... and last sounds like the best skier in Sahara What I may say ... all we need (in that country) is time (not love )... perhaps many time аnd change our vision (if you know what I mean) and Troika must do this one of the first ... but now it's looks like troglo-trading, not algo-trading...

QuoteOriginally posted by: tu160QuoteOriginally posted by: DaniilSo I'd like to understand why not to come back to Russia and make money there? It'll be easier to build career and to grow professionallyI think the main reason is that people with quantitative background are severely underpaid in Moscow. And even if you find a place with competitive salary you carry a huge risk that you will not find second job like that.Partially it takes roots from the illusion that there is a huge surplus of mathematicians and programmers in Russia ready work for food So firms hire fresh graduates who don't know a shit but if your core business is oil/gas/retail money transfer to offshore accounts you really don't care and just pretending I agree. Hire newbies, there's plenty of them, and they are clever. Why is it always everything for nothing there?Of course, to start you need some experienced. But not too many if taking this risk, and I guess Troika can allow itself to hire these few with the very high price.QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentnot to defend Daniil, but names such as David Shaw or James Simons are well-known far outside of "the nerdy algo trading community".As for coming back to Russia....no f***ing way. terrible weather, angry people, and exploding trains have been keeping me away from Russia for quite a while.That is simply because in emerging markets you don't need quants, money can be earned easier. There is no quant background there, so there's no quants. Wait for the background (how long, this is the question), and I am sure there will be well-known algo-trading firms.

QuoteOriginally posted by: tu160I think the main reason is that people with quantitative background are severely underpaid in Moscow. And even if you find a place with competitive salary you carry a huge risk that you will not find second job like that.Exactly. I'm back to Moscow 3Y ago, and never seen any high level quant job advertised there. So, there should be a huge liquidity premium to make people moving.You pay transaction costs for moving, personal investments for integration, language courses and so on, and if you leave your employer (on massive cost reductions like all mentioned below Troika, RenCap and VTB last year or for other reason), you'll be obliged to go back to your country because you'll not find another decent job on-site.