QuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuotePrivate capital demands (and gets) that privilege from public capital. Why should it always be one-sided?Private capital only gets those privileges by bribing corrupt politicians,Sure. That's called capitalism. Quotelike your friends in power.I have no friends in power, but you do. Some control the Republican Party that controls Congress at the moment. Others are the ones doing the bribing on all sides. Others, like your fellow Rand acolyte Greenspan were major players in destroying the economy which enabled your other friends on Wall St to demand taxpayer bail-outs.Quote It should be zero-sided.Sure.QuoteQuote The simple fact is that we live in a connected world where, to some degree, we all sink or swim together. What a useless load of fascist crap!How typical of a lover of Rand's fascism to accuse another of fascism. I guess anyone who disagrees with that expert fascist-communist hunter Glenn Beck is a fascist in your book (when they're not being a communist that is).Quote "To some degree" renders any statement useless.No. It just demands thought. Something with which you have demonstrated great difficulty.QuoteHow do you sink to some degree?It depends on your specific gravity, your angle of inclination and the depth of the water.QuoteIs this the economic equivalent of Schroedinger's cat?Any sort of cat could think better about this than you.Now I know why you mentioned anger management in a previous post. Someone has obviously suggested to you before that you could think better if you lost some of your bloated misanthropy by beating a few cushions.QuoteQuoteSelective arguments about who gets helped and who has to fend for themselves come from an agenda motivated by whether the arguer gains or not.And what are YOU gaining? What a stupid remark! Should we just settle it with a war instead of discussion?Some of us are not so exclusively pre-occupied with self-interest because we realize that our well-being often interacts with that of others. So, rather than force our opinion on others by being the loudest shouters of deceptively selective arguments (or, your other choice, violence) we do indeed appreciate the benefits of intelligent discussion based on finding common ground and building from there.

QuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXa bit OT but I think it may interest some quant guys Cooperative game model and the greek crisisVery hard to put true cooperation in practice though. This is obviously not relatistic but it's fun Just to relax the atmosphere before everybody kill each other in this thread That's a great link. I am very happy to see people thinking constructively about what they call "coopetition" -- co-operative competition. AKA "win-win". I also suspect that the idea of maximizing the collective pay-off rather than the individual pay-off of any one player will give exCBOE apoplexy.

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXa bit OT but I think it may interest some quant guys Cooperative game model and the greek crisisVery hard to put true cooperation in practice though. This is obviously not relatistic but it's fun Just to relax the atmosphere before everybody kill each other in this thread That's a great link. I am very happy to see people thinking constructively about what they call "coopetition" -- co-operative competition. AKA "win-win". I also suspect that the idea of maximizing the collective pay-off rather than the individual pay-off of any one player will give exCBOE apoplexy. You obviously have no idea what capitalists in general or Rand in particular, think. True capitalists reject rent seekers and want the govt to keep out the economy and stick to defending the country and preventing citizens from using violence on each other. It seems to be a talking point among progressives to call Rand a fascist, but I guess without that script to follow you would be unable to write anything at all. (oops...there I go again...projecting...LMAO) She is as far from being a fascist as one can be. She wrote thousands of pages of fiction and philosophy, and there isn't a single fascist thought expressed. You might learn something if you look up her brilliant lecture/essay from the early sixties called "the Fascist New Frontier", if you want to know who some of the real fascists are.You talk about win/win. That is the essence of capitalism. The only reason free people trade with each other is if both believe they will be better off after trading. Meanwhile your entire style and attitude in almost every post is angry and confrontational. It is hard to find a single line from your keyboard which could be construed as seeking cooperation. Voluntary cooperation is like consensual sex; a wonderful thing. Coercion in peacetime is like rape. Yes, I said peacetime. It is a moral imperative to use retaliatory force if you are attacked, unless you are hopelessly weaker than the attacker.What your fellow travelers call win/win, is actually only a win for the parasite. Maybe Germany should help bail out Greece; they still owe them from the war. The win for Germany is the satisfaction of paying a moral debt and of being charitable to the needy, deserving or not. The win for Greece is being able to continue to consume more than they produce for as long as there are kind strangers around, or is that ultimately a loss? People who offer something of value get to cooperate for free. But people who need people are the luckiest people in the world if they can find enough self-sacrificing victims.

QuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXa bit OT but I think it may interest some quant guys Cooperative game model and the greek crisisVery hard to put true cooperation in practice though. This is obviously not relatistic but it's fun Just to relax the atmosphere before everybody kill each other in this thread That's a great link. I am very happy to see people thinking constructively about what they call "coopetition" -- co-operative competition. AKA "win-win". I also suspect that the idea of maximizing the collective pay-off rather than the individual pay-off of any one player will give exCBOE apoplexy. You obviously have no idea what capitalists in general or Rand in particular, think. True capitalists reject rent seekers and want the govt to keep out the economyAnd keep those with less capital out of the economy except as wage slaves. You seem to be oblivious of the fact that it's called "capitalism" rather than (say) "freedom" because it is a system designed to accumulate more capital for existing capital.One of Ayn Rand's more gifted and revelatory philosophical ideas was that "an A is an A". I say revelatory not because tautology is a great revelation to anyone who understands basic logic, but because it does not mean "an A is a B". So it would be quite a revelation to Rand and her acolytes to realize that it isn't true that capitalism (A) equates to free trade (B), free markets (C) and/or free enterprise (D) -- not least because capitalism is in fundamental contradiction to all of the latter three. QuoteYou talk about win/win. That is the essence of capitalism.Oh really? Then why isn't it called win-winism? I'll tell you. It's because the notion that the extortion of value from others through the strength of capital creates win-wins is fiction. QuoteThe only reason free people trade with each other is if both believe they will be better off after trading. Or because they have no other acceptable choice. QuotePeople who offer something of value get to cooperate for free.Sometimes, yes. Other times they are coerced. In particular capital is a very powerful weapon of coercion. (As well as corruption as previously you agreed.)

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXa bit OT but I think it may interest some quant guys Cooperative game model and the greek crisisVery hard to put true cooperation in practice though. This is obviously not relatistic but it's fun Just to relax the atmosphere before everybody kill each other in this thread That's a great link. I am very happy to see people thinking constructively about what they call "coopetition" -- co-operative competition. AKA "win-win". I also suspect that the idea of maximizing the collective pay-off rather than the individual pay-off of any one player will give exCBOE apoplexy. You obviously have no idea what capitalists in general or Rand in particular, think. True capitalists reject rent seekers and want the govt to keep out the economyAnd keep those with less capital out of the economy except as wage slaves. You seem to be oblivious of the fact that it's called "capitalism" rather than (say) "freedom" because it is a system designed to accumulate more capital for existing capital.QuoteYou talk about win/win. That is the essence of capitalism.Oh really? Then why isn't it called win-winism? Because the notion that the extortion of value from others through the strength of capital creates win-wins is fiction. QuoteThe only reason free people trade with each other is if both believe they will be better off after trading. Or because they have no other acceptable choice. QuotePeople who offer something of value get to cooperate for free.Sometimes, yes. Other times they are coerced. In particular capital is a very powerful weapon of coercion. (As well as corruption as previously you agreed.)It is pointless to argue with someone who simply says what he pleases with nothing to back it up....perhaps I'm projecting again, right?...you don't want honest debate. Sure there are criminal capitalists. Was Stalin a capitalist/, Mao?, even your hero Hitller? (zingggg)Nearly every criticism of capitalism hangs on government corruption and interference. You want to compare democratic capitalism to an ideal which never existed, doesn't exist, and likely, never will. You make no distinction between the obvious coercion in nature from the need to eat, etc. and the coercion of an immediate threat of violence from another person. In all acts of kindness you see exploitation. Better someone should starve than be exploited by someone willing to give him a job.But the real evil in your ideology is its cherry-picking. Are the modern, educated Greeks really entitled to more help than say, the Zimbabweans? Why favor Greece over Burma, or India with per capita GDP's so much lower? Look at American progressives, who want to protect American labor from third world competitors. You all talk a good game, but in the end all the pompous, privileged socialists get cushy jobs with expense accounts at govt expense, while the true workers are exploited by them every day.I will no longer try to argue with you about capitalism, if you insist on defining it by its corrupted forms. Are you so naive as to think I favor govt bailouts of giant banks? What satisfaction can you get from twisting my words in order to pick a fight?This could have been a nice thread, maybe even coming up with constructive ideas about helping Greece without rewarding it for its irresponsible behavior. But your venomous attacks based on lies are typical of leftists who care only about their fantasies as long as they are themselves living high on the hog.Go ahead...put my words through your distortion machine again just as you have done in so many threads to so many members.

QuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEIt is pointless to argue with someone who simply says what he pleases with nothing to back it up....perhaps I'm projecting again, right?Projecting yes. Pointless sometimes. At other times I even enjoy it -- especially with the most arrogantly ignorant. It's like, er what was your metaphor? Was it "shooting fish in a barrel"?Quote...you don't want honest debate. It's very difficult to find, I admit. But I love it when I see it.QuoteSure there are criminal capitalists.The adjective "criminal" is redundant.QuoteWas Stalin a capitalist/Interesting question. Certainly there are similarities between the power that accrues to a small powerful clique (through the state-ownership of all wealth) and the power that accrues to privately-owned capital. Plainly both systems suffer from a very similar form of corruption.QuoteMao?Mao was many things -- particularly a revolutionary leader of a peasant army. But I don't think he could ever be reasonably compared to a capitalist. Apart from being a Marxist, he was plainly too ideologically (and disastrously) devoted to a particular form of peasant-led social engineering that failed. His successors, however, have lost his ideology but embraced capitalism warmly when they had all the power to embrace political freedom and genuine state-supported free markets in a constitutional democracy instead.Quote, even your hero Hitller? (zingggg)Or yours, Attila the Hun? QuoteNearly every criticism of capitalism hangs on government corruption and interference.Yeah, it's a mystery why isn't it?QuoteYou want to compare democratic capitalism to an ideal which never existed, doesn't exist, and likely, never will. You make no distinction between the obvious coercion in nature from the need to eat, etc. and the coercion of an immediate threat of violence from another person. In all acts of kindness you see exploitation.I am fascinated by the way you keep inventing these amazingly stupid accusations to throw at me. Of course, it's no coincidence that they sound like they came from Ayn Rand. Perhaps I should accuse you of being a serial killer or fucking little boys. Who knows, unlike your fantasies, any wild guess I could make stands a finite chance, however small, of being accurate.QuoteBetter someone should starve than be exploited by someone willing to give him a job.Better someone should have a chance to have their creativity appreciated and warmly compensated than be given the choice you permit them.QuoteBut the real evil in your ideology is its cherry-picking. Are the modern, educated Greeks really entitled to more help than say, the Zimbabweans? Why favor Greece over Burma, or India with per capita GDP's so much lower?Hmmm..... Should fairies be allowed to fly free? Are spaniels really entitled to better dogfood than poodles? Why favor ice-cream over filet mignon? Obviously someone must be doing the favoring or I wouldn't be asking the question. These are really deep philosophical questions. I demand to know your answer! If you don't give one I shall demand to know whether you have stopped beating your wife.QuoteLook at American progressives, who want to protect American labor from third world competitors.I didn't realize Pat Buchanan was a "progressive".QuoteYou all talk a good game, but in the end all the pompous, privileged socialists get cushy jobs with expense accounts at govt expense, while the true workers are exploited by them every day.Ah yes! The only alternative to capitalism is a bunch of exploitative socialists. Of course, how could I be so blind as to not see that?QuoteI will no longer try to argue with you about capitalism,A wise decision, since you have such an absurdly ideological yet self-contradictory view of it.Quoteif you insist on defining it by its corrupted forms.I'd love to see an example of an uncorrupted form.QuoteAre you so naive as to think I favor govt bailouts of giant banks?I've no idea whether you do or not. But I know your political friends who parrot the same bs as you, were responsible for both creating the conditions that enabled them to demand it and get it.QuoteWhat satisfaction can you get from twisting my words in order to pick a fight?None at all. You words speak for themselves -- with every fight you pick.QuoteThis could have been a nice thread, maybe even coming up with constructive ideas about helping Greece without rewarding it for its irresponsible behavior. But your venomous attacks based on lies are typical of leftists who care only about their fantasies as long as they are themselves living high on the hog.I am startled by the ease with which you represent intellectual honesty in the face of ignorance, dishonesty and bigotry as venomous. When are you coming to waterboard me?QuoteGo ahead...put my words through your distortion machine again just as you have done in so many threads to so many members.Now you're getting really Orwellian. Honest reasoning = distortion, eh? It's a common feeling amongst people whose arrogant intellectual backruptcy has been exposed to feel upset about it and not appreciate the gift. But I assure you it is nothing personal. I'd do the same for anyone who shoots their mouth off so stupidly as you.

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEIt is pointless to argue with someone who simply says what he pleases with nothing to back it up....perhaps I'm projecting again, right?Projecting yes. Pointless sometimes. At other times I even enjoy it -- especially with the most arrogantly ignorant. It's like, er what was your metaphor? Was it "shooting fish in a barrel"?Quote...you don't want honest debate. It's very difficult to find, I admit. But I love it when I see it.QuoteSure there are criminal capitalists.The adjective "criminal" is redundant.QuoteWas Stalin a capitalist/Interesting question. Certainly there are similarities between the power that accrues to a small powerful clique (through the state-ownership of all wealth) and the power that accrues to privately-owned capital. Plainly both systems suffer from a very similar form of corruption.QuoteMao?Mao was many things -- particularly a revolutionary leader of a peasant army. But I don't think he could ever be reasonably compared to a capitalist. Apart from being a Marxist, he was plainly too ideologically (and disastrously) devoted to a particular form of peasant-led social engineering that failed. His successors, however, have lost his ideology but embraced capitalism warmly when they had all the power to embrace political freedom and genuine state-supported free markets in a constitutional democracy instead.Do you really not get the point? They are examples of socialist leaders. If you won't defend their regimes, why I should I defend any so-called capitalists?Quote, even your hero Hitller? (zingggg)Or yours, Attila the Hun? QuoteNearly every criticism of capitalism hangs on government corruption and interference.Yeah, it's a mystery why isn't it?QuoteYou want to compare democratic capitalism to an ideal which never existed, doesn't exist, and likely, never will. You make no distinction between the obvious coercion in nature from the need to eat, etc. and the coercion of an immediate threat of violence from another person. In all acts of kindness you see exploitation.I am fascinated by the way you keep inventing these amazingly stupid accusations to throw at me. Of course, it's no coincidence that they sound like they came from Ayn Rand. Perhaps I should accuse you of being a serial killer or fucking little boys. Who knows, unlike your fantasies, any wild guess I could make stands a finite chance, however small, of being accurate.There you go, projecting again. (did I use the word correctly?)QuoteBetter someone should starve than be exploited by someone willing to give him a job.Better someone should have a chance to have their creativity appreciated and warmly compensated than be given the choice you permit them.QuoteBut the real evil in your ideology is its cherry-picking. Are the modern, educated Greeks really entitled to more help than say, the Zimbabweans? Why favor Greece over Burma, or India with per capita GDP's so much lower?Hmmm..... Should fairies be allowed to fly free? Are spaniels really entitled to better dogfood than poodles? Why favor ice-cream over filet mignon? Obviously someone must be doing the favoring or I wouldn't be asking the question. These are really deep philosophical questions. I demand to know your answer! If you don't give one I shall demand to know whether you have stopped beating your wife.You fuckin arrogant twit! My wife died from cancer 6 months ago. So I can assure you the question is moot. But I would rather have been waterboarded every day of my life than ever lay a hand on her in anger. You are a mean-spirited, worthless human being.QuoteLook at American progressives, who want to protect American labor from third world competitors.I didn't realize Pat Buchanan was a "progressive".Are you a complete fuckin moron? Even if all progressives want to protect domestic labor, you cannot conclude than all or any non-progressives do so. Of course without "converse reasoning", you would have no reasoning at all.QuoteYou all talk a good game, but in the end all the pompous, privileged socialists get cushy jobs with expense accounts at govt expense, while the true workers are exploited by them every day.Ah yes! The only alternative to capitalism is a bunch of exploitative socialists. Of course, how could I be so blind as to not see that?What is your alternative? Government by good faeries?QuoteI will no longer try to argue with you about capitalism,A wise decision, since you have such an absurdly ideological yet self-contradictory view of it.A new kind of distortion. Break apart two clauses in a sentence to change the meaning.Quoteif you insist on defining it by its corrupted forms.I'd love to see an example of an uncorrupted form.Unless you are willing to condemn every failed socialist experiment as proving that socialism cannot be good, I have no need to do so for capitalism.QuoteAre you so naive as to think I favor govt bailouts of giant banks?I've no idea whether you do or not. But I know your political friends who parrot the same bs as you, were responsible for both creating the conditions that enabled them to demand it and get it.As should be apparent even to a pathetic pinhead like you, you know almost nothing about my friends or my beliefs.QuoteWhat satisfaction can you get from twisting my words in order to pick a fight?None at all. You words speak for themselves -- with every fight you pick.Granted, I've been on this forum much less than you, but you seem to have been in lots of fights. Do you start them, or is everybody here less knowledgeable than you?QuoteThis could have been a nice thread, maybe even coming up with constructive ideas about helping Greece without rewarding it for its irresponsible behavior. But your venomous attacks based on lies are typical of leftists who care only about their fantasies as long as they are themselves living high on the hog.I am startled by the ease with which you represent intellectual honesty in the face of ignorance, dishonesty and bigotry as venomous. When are you coming to waterboard me?That would be a waste of water.QuoteGo ahead...put my words through your distortion machine again just as you have done in so many threads to so many members.Now you're getting really Orwellian. Honest reasoning = distortion, eh? It's a common feeling amongst people whose arrogant intellectual backruptcy has been exposed to feel upset about it and not appreciate the gift. But I assure you it is nothing personal. I'd do the same for anyone who shoots their mouth off so stupidly as you.We really are in that Monty Python sketch. I am shocked that you liked it. The question is who has which role. It's safe to say we could argue that point in an infinite loop, without ever leaving the sketch.

Today is fun. The euro banks don't have access for borrowing in the US market and so the BCE has to print dollar (575 millions).I think we have seen everything guys

QuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEDo you really not get the point? They are examples of socialist leaders. If you won't defend their regimes,I don't defend their regimes because I don't defend socialism. Everything I have written on Wilmott Forum has been as critical of big government and centrally-planned economies as it has been of capitalism.Quotewhy I should I defend any so-called capitalists?I would have thought your approval of capitalism was a good reason. But perhaps you have finally discovered that there is no defense of capitalism.QuoteI am fascinated by the way you keep inventing these amazingly stupid accusations to throw at me. Of course, it's no coincidence that they sound like they came from Ayn Rand. Perhaps I should accuse you of being a serial killer or fucking little boys. Who knows, unlike your fantasies, any wild guess I could make stands a finite chance, however small, of being accurate.There you go, projecting again. (did I use the word correctly?)Since you ask, no.QuoteQuoteBetter someone should starve than be exploited by someone willing to give him a job.Better someone should have a chance to have their creativity appreciated and warmly compensated than be given the choice you permit them.QuoteBut the real evil in your ideology is its cherry-picking. Are the modern, educated Greeks really entitled to more help than say, the Zimbabweans? Why favor Greece over Burma, or India with per capita GDP's so much lower?Hmmm..... Should fairies be allowed to fly free? Are spaniels really entitled to better dogfood than poodles? Why favor ice-cream over filet mignon? Obviously someone must be doing the favoring or I wouldn't be asking the question. These are really deep philosophical questions. I demand to know your answer! If you don't give one I shall demand to know whether you have stopped beating your wife.You fuckin arrogant twit! My wife died from cancer 6 months ago. So I can assure you the question is moot. But I would rather have been waterboarded every day of my life than ever lay a hand on her in anger. You are a mean-spirited, worthless human being.I am sorry that my use of a simile commonly employed to illustrate your logical fallacy had such personal significance to you. I'll even forgive your using it as an excuse to abuse me more.QuoteQuoteLook at American progressives, who want to protect American labor from third world competitors.I didn't realize Pat Buchanan was a "progressive".Are you a complete fuckin moron? Even if all progressives want to protect domestic labor, you cannot conclude than all or any non-progressives do so. Of course without "converse reasoning", you would have no reasoning at all.You really need to take a course in basic logic. You throw logical fallacies around like candy for kids. What's worse is that you are immune to having them pointed out.QuoteQuoteYou all talk a good game, but in the end all the pompous, privileged socialists get cushy jobs with expense accounts at govt expense, while the true workers are exploited by them every day.Ah yes! The only alternative to capitalism is a bunch of exploitative socialists. Of course, how could I be so blind as to not see that?What is your alternative? Government by good faeries?I have written extensively about it. It's even in my signature that accompanies every post of mine that you have assaulted with your arrogance. The essential ingredients are:1. The separation of government from production.2. The role of government (representing the community) is to provide the infrastructure for commerce and fair markets and be compensated for doing so at market rates.3. Production is the sole preserve of the private sector which compensates the government for providing a fair environment in which it can operate.QuoteQuoteI will no longer try to argue with you about capitalism,A wise decision, since you have such an absurdly ideological yet self-contradictory view of it.A new kind of distortion. Break apart two clauses in a sentence to change the meaning.Apparently you can't count either.QuoteQuoteif you insist on defining it by its corrupted forms.I'd love to see an example of an uncorrupted form.Unless you are willing to condemn every failed socialist experiment as proving that socialism cannot be goodNo problem. I am willing to condemn every failed socialist experiment as proving that socialism (by which I assume you mean big government and a centrally-planned economy) cannot be good.QuoteI have no need to do so for capitalism.I await your condemnation of every failed capitalist experiment as proving that capitalism cannot be good. Not that there would be much point to it. It's the intrinsic nature of capitalism (a system for accumulating ever more capital in the hands of existing capital) that proves it cannot be good, not the failed experiments.QuoteQuoteAre you so naive as to think I favor govt bailouts of giant banks?I've no idea whether you do or not. But I know your political friends who parrot the same bs as you, were responsible for both creating the conditions that enabled them to demand it and get it.As should be apparent even to a pathetic pinhead like you, you know almost nothing about my friends or my beliefs.Apparently I know more about them than you do about mine, but it didn't stop your lecturing me about mine.QuoteQuoteWhat satisfaction can you get from twisting my words in order to pick a fight?None at all. You words speak for themselves -- with every fight you pick.Granted, I've been on this forum much less than you, but you seem to have been in lots of fights. Do you start them, or is everybody here less knowledgeable than you?As one would expect on a finance forum in a capitalist world, there are plenty of people desperate to pick fights with me because they think they'll get more support than I will. But their failure to read, think or understand, leads to over-confidence and they end up embarrassed and angry and often become obsessed with the scatological which I find quite amusing.On the other hand, there are plenty of others who have the common sense and decency to engage with me respectfully and they get treated the same way in return. I have had many useful and creative discussions here with people like Alan, frenchX, Cuchulainn, Paul, Polter, cmrcom in which there have been both disagreements and stimulating ideas. But those people don't vomit their political and economic ideology all over me like you do. (Most likely because intelligent people tend not to have much interest in defending ideologies.)QuoteQuoteThis could have been a nice thread, maybe even coming up with constructive ideas about helping Greece without rewarding it for its irresponsible behavior. But your venomous attacks based on lies are typical of leftists who care only about their fantasies as long as they are themselves living high on the hog.I am startled by the ease with which you represent intellectual honesty in the face of ignorance, dishonesty and bigotry as venomous. When are you coming to waterboard me?That would be a waste of water.QuoteQuoteGo ahead...put my words through your distortion machine again just as you have done in so many threads to so many members.Now you're getting really Orwellian. Honest reasoning = distortion, eh? It's a common feeling amongst people whose arrogant intellectual backruptcy has been exposed to feel upset about it and not appreciate the gift. But I assure you it is nothing personal. I'd do the same for anyone who shoots their mouth off so stupidly as you.We really are in that Monty Python sketch. I am shocked that you liked it. The question is who has which role. I have no question there.QuoteIt's safe to say we could argue that point in an infinite loop, without ever leaving the sketch.Apparently you have failed to notice that I leave the sketch every post. It's you that brings it back.

QuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXYes but never the German (as a massive exporting economy) will accept to devaluate the Euro that's the problem. The BCE is the Bundesbank. They are in command and they want to maximize their utility in detriment of their partners one. Welcome to modern economy.The BCE and the Eurozone is not as reactive as the Fed and the US I fear Inflation? Thank God the Germs don't let the ECB hyper-inflate the EU. It's bad for almost everyone except for those (resident (EU) debtors) that were responsible for this mess! People persistently forget that there are millions of EU citizens that are the real creditors of the debtors with Bank shareholders & employees & supervisors & politicians acting as parasite intermediaries and promoting this mess. EU Banks and Sovereigns have both type of citizens: lenders and borrowers. Bank shareholders and Top Employees are just parasites taking advantage of the debt overhang problem.Inflation only benefits citizens that are debtors and corrupt and inapt Politicians that can't plan anything right for the sake of their citizens. They just want power and influence to make a bunch of money for their partisans and friends.

QuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearQuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXYes but never the German (as a massive exporting economy) will accept to devaluate the Euro that's the problem. The BCE is the Bundesbank. They are in command and they want to maximize their utility in detriment of their partners one. Welcome to modern economy.The BCE and the Eurozone is not as reactive as the Fed and the US I fear Inflation? Thank God the Germs don't let the ECB hyper-inflate the EU. It's bad for almost everyone except for those (resident (EU) debtors) that were responsible for this mess! People persistently forget that there are millions of EU citizens that are the real creditors of the debtors with Bank shareholders & employees & supervisors & politicians acting as parasite intermediaries and promoting this mess. EU Banks and Sovereigns have both type of citizens: lenders and borrowers. Bank shareholders and Top Employees are just parasites taking advantage of the debt overhang problem.Inflation only benefits citizens that are debtors and corrupt and inapt Politicians that can't plan anything right for the sake of their citizens. They just want power and influence to make a bunch of money for their partisans and friends.Inflation would benefit all net debtors, whether citizens, banks, or sovereigns. It hurts net creditors. Now let's think---which is Germany. Creditor you say? And who gets to decide if the euro can hyper-inflate? ummm...Germany? And who has a visceral ancestral aversion to high inflation? Could it be Germany? I think it is safe to say that a lot of banks and countries are going to have to fail completely, before Germany will risk high inflation. Might as well take it off the table. The Piggs had better look for a plan B.What would be a good outcome? I mean from a capitalist point of view. Let the debtors forfeit their collateral and de-leverage the continent until some sense of fiscal sanity is restored. What has it been, 3000 years or more since mankind realized that leverage is a dangerous thing. Maybe someone versed in history can tell us how many wars it has caused.Bullbear, you are sooo cynical. Do you really think politicians seek power and wealth for their own sake? They are just altruistic folks who are much smarter and more deserving than most of us and are sacrificing their own interests for the good of the people. Just the perfect choice to figure out how to "fix" things. (Note to fermion...that is called sarcasm)

QuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearInflation only benefits citizens that are debtors and corrupt and inapt Politicians that can't plan anything right for the sake of their citizens. They just want power and influence to make a bunch of money for their partisans and friends.Inflation would benefit all net debtors, whether citizens, banks, or sovereigns.Actually, inflation only helps net debtors who can run a sufficient surplus to repay their debts (with inflated currency). Debtors with deficits or who must roll their debts as the come due get royally screwed by inflation because they are forced to borrow at inflation-determined rates. Unless the inflation keeps accelerating, they eventually have to pay off the inflated debt with currency that's no longer inflating. And who thinks that EU inflation would help the governments run a surplus?

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearInflation only benefits citizens that are debtors and corrupt and inapt Politicians that can't plan anything right for the sake of their citizens. They just want power and influence to make a bunch of money for their partisans and friends.Inflation would benefit all net debtors, whether citizens, banks, or sovereigns.Actually, inflation only helps net debtors who can run a sufficient surplus to repay their debts (with inflated currency). Debtors with deficits or who must roll their debts as the come due get royally screwed by inflation because they are forced to borrow at inflation-determined rates. Unless the inflation keeps accelerating, they eventually have to pay off the inflated debt with currency that's no longer inflating. And who thinks that EU inflation would help the governments run a surplus?You raise an interesting point. How high would interest rates have to go for rollover to be impossible? In any case, most debt is not that short term. In hyperinflation, 90 days can seem an eternity (theory of relativity). Some examples:Germany 1923 it got over a million % a month.Greece 1944 (wartime, to be fair) over a billion % a monthHungary 1946 (yay, communism) hard to imagine, but it exceeded 10 quadrillion % a month.I would venture that rolling over debt was the least of their problems. A few packs of cigarettes would settle the government's entire debt.

QuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearInflation only benefits citizens that are debtors and corrupt and inapt Politicians that can't plan anything right for the sake of their citizens. They just want power and influence to make a bunch of money for their partisans and friends.Inflation would benefit all net debtors, whether citizens, banks, or sovereigns.Actually, inflation only helps net debtors who can run a sufficient surplus to repay their debts (with inflated currency). Debtors with deficits or who must roll their debts as the come due get royally screwed by inflation because they are forced to borrow at inflation-determined rates. Unless the inflation keeps accelerating, they eventually have to pay off the inflated debt with currency that's no longer inflating. And who thinks that EU inflation would help the governments run a surplus?You raise an interesting point. How high would interest rates have to go for rollover to be impossible? In any case, most debt is not that short term. In hyperinflation, 90 days can seem an eternity (theory of relativity). Some examples:Germany 1923 it got over a million % a month.Greece 1944 (wartime, to be fair) over a billion % a monthHungary 1946 (yay, communism) hard to imagine, but it exceeded 10 quadrillion % a month.I would venture that rolling over debt was the least of their problems. A few packs of cigarettes would settle the government's entire debt.Exactly!And it might even be worse than we think if these governments have COLAs (Cost-of-Living Adjustments) built into civil service labour contracts or social benefit laws. Those liabilities can't be inflated away at all.The most likely response would be an end to lending euros. The governments would find they would be forced to borrow in CHF (like the Eastern Europeans) or USD and bear all the inflation costs directly.

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: exCBOEQuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearInflation only benefits citizens that are debtors and corrupt and inapt Politicians that can't plan anything right for the sake of their citizens. They just want power and influence to make a bunch of money for their partisans and friends.Inflation would benefit all net debtors, whether citizens, banks, or sovereigns.Actually, inflation only helps net debtors who can run a sufficient surplus to repay their debts (with inflated currency). Debtors with deficits or who must roll their debts as the come due get royally screwed by inflation because they are forced to borrow at inflation-determined rates. Unless the inflation keeps accelerating, they eventually have to pay off the inflated debt with currency that's no longer inflating. And who thinks that EU inflation would help the governments run a surplus?The PIIGS could repay their debts, with hyper-inflation, by extortion to the Germans and all EU net creditors. Rates are already fixed for "x" years... with hyper-inflation they could sell a pack of cigarettes and repay their debts at the expense of All EU citizens who are net creditors (Germans, Some PIIGS citizens, other countries) who all their lifetime savings wouldn't be enough to buy a pack of cigarettes. So, high inflation is evil! It would be a trade of of a lifetime of savings for a lifetime of debts.Governments from the PIIGS (our Southern EU government folks and Oligarchs truly are Pigs) would already have done this if it weren't for the EUR. The latins are famous for their ponzi-scheme abilities with national currency redenomination (e.g. Brazil with Color de Melo). With the EUR, if they leave the EUR, the EUR would become forex like the USD or the CHF, and Creditors will have legal claims in EUR. That's why there hasn't been a true routing of money from a bunch of EU countries. If these Governments dare to say that 1 EUR of their debt is equal to 100 New National Currency that can't buy a bigmac, and Courts back the Government instead of backing the law and the rights of citizens, they will be criminals and cause a true mutiny (a blood bath, maybe) from all citizens who are net creditors! So... inflation is the most unfair mechanism used by Governments and Central Bankers to rob People. They have printed money in 08 to prevent a great depression. Now they want to keep doing it all over again and again until they screw everybody up. I have defended an expansionist policy on 2008 but with the remark that these deficits would have to be compensated with years of austerity in Gov spending and a decade of de-leverage later. Governments are still spending 5% to 10% above their means and keep saying this is austerity and... "oh, it's so hard to cut the deficit from 10% to 5% and from 5% to 3%!". These Policitians are a shame.