QuoteOriginally posted by: JohnnyThe idea is that US aid to Israel is predominantly driven by the US Christian Right. "What?", you say, "why would the Christian Right support aid to Israel?". The answer is apparently that on the Day of Judgement, the first to be up in front of The Lord will be The Nation of Israel. Only afterwards will everyone else (including the US Christian Right) have their chance to ascend to Heaven (or descend ...). Therefore, according to this logic, it is imperative that the Nation of Israel continues to exist in order that the US Christians can have their chance to go to Heaven. No Israel, no Heaven, so the US Christian Lobby is strongly in favour of US aid to Israel.Except for the word "predominantly," there is a lot of truth to this. I have seen, in Georgia, televised appeals for aid to help Russian Jews get to Israel on a Christian cable channel. I think the story was that $750 would help one Russian Jew emigrate. This was just a couple years ago. They didn't really go into messianism, though -- it was more based on biblical history and helping the Jews keep what God gave them. However, I have no doubt that it would be easy to track down a Christian messianic reason to support Israel on a major American Christian website. I would call this group more important allies to Zionist Jews than the "predominant drivers" of US support for Israel.

I cannot help but think that this is due to the likn between Chistianity and the Right in US politics.Both had cause to hate Russia, and so anything that annoyed the Soviet Union was seen as inherently good.Again we see the lost opportunity for Islam to build bridges with poeple that could help it. The US used to fund moslem groups fighting the Russians, it would not have taken much for Moslems to portray themselves as people struggling for religous freedom. I accept that the Jewish lobby is the gold standard for lobbying and media relations, but Moslems seem to have reacted to this by getting their finest minds to think up the action that would cause it to lost the most support possible.

>the Jewish lobby is the gold standard standard>Moslems seem to have reacted to this by getting their finest minds to think up the action that would cause it to lost the most support possibleDominic, Jews are extremely effective because they are an integral part of the US establishement. Lieberman, an orthodox Jew, is going to run for president, for Christ's sake. As an opposite case, look at Al Fayed, poor guy still cant get his British citizenship after living in the UK for like 20 years.

QuoteOriginally posted by: JohnnyThere's a wacko idea that comes up from time to time, which I'll repeat here - but remember, this isn't what I believe, it's just an idea that I'm repeating here for the benefit/entertainment of the forum! Also, it's more than likely that I've got the details a bit wrong, but you should get the drift.The idea is that US aid to Israel is predominantly driven by the US Christian Right. "What?", you say, "why would the Christian Right support aid to Israel?". The answer is apparently that on the Day of Judgement, the first to be up in front of The Lord will be The Nation of Israel. Only afterwards will everyone else (including the US Christian Right) have their chance to ascend to Heaven (or descend ...). Therefore, according to this logic, it is imperative that the Nation of Israel continues to exist in order that the US Christians can have their chance to go to Heaven. No Israel, no Heaven, so the US Christian Lobby is strongly in favour of US aid to Israel.Now ... where's SUSANCHELSEA?i think the point is that the relevant prophecies require the jews to return to the holy land before judgement day can occur.MJ

QuoteOriginally posted by: cekpetDominic, Jews are extremely effective because they are an integral part of the US establishement. Lieberman, an orthodox Jew, is going to run for president, for Christ's sake. As an opposite case, look at Al Fayed, poor guy still cant get his British citizenship after living in the UK for like 20 years.Why shouldn't an orthodox Jew run for President? And why would you imagine that he's doing it for Christ's sake?

It seems appropriate I should unravel the mystery of lobbying for some of you.Obviously, your model of lobbying that you pay to get something cannot work, because it is a negative-sum game. Obviously, for instance, the people the government takes money from could afford to spend more money than the people the government gives the money to, and thereby win the decision to let them keep their money!So the question, then, is is the government a positive-sum game, does it act as a pricing and preference-discovery clearinghouse, so that the world is wealthier after they have acted upon your wishes than before? A quick examination of the relative standard of living between countries that have more and less planned economies eliminates any question as to whether this is the case.Does the government redirect wealth from more dispersed interests to more concentrated interests? Yes, they can easily confiscate money from 1,000 people who all live 50 miles from the nearest other member of the group, and give it to 50 people who live on the same block. Because the amount of gas the dispersed people would have to buy to hold a fight-back meeting is more than the amount confiscated.So, in conclusion, lobbying is the natural counter-strategy to a broader pattern extortion. It is the natural tendency of "the government" to take more and more money in a self-perpetuating, ratcheting way, until everythign collpases. But "the government" is a dispersed and clumsy entity, whose general revenues can be outweighed by concentrated expenditures on individual, concentrated congressmen.You don't have to pay "the mob" $1,000, if you can pay their local agent on the street $500 to say you don't exist. And all lobbying, and all government transfers, are simply different permutations of this concentration/organization/dispersion incentive structure.Once Cuban Americans are already organized to expend their anti-Castro energies, once their meetingroom rent has already been covered by these perceived benefits, any new purpose to which they might turn their energies is subsidized. Or consider peak-hour commuters, who are the reasons bridges must be six rather than two lanes wide. They are able to win volume token discounts not because the odd evening traveler costs more per trip, but because their per-trip costs of leaning on the bridge-and-toll authority is less.MP

>Why shouldn't an orthodox Jew run for President?Because, according to his religion, it's OK to screw goys, who represent the majority of the population of the United States

Duck, you really don't understand much, do you?For an adequately organized group with a common interest, the US government is the best investment in the world. Depending upon your interest, you can buy as much of the government as you need for anywhere from about $4 million to about $50 million a year, and your return will be easily ten times your investment. If you want funding under some obscure program, it won't cost you much but your volume will be limited; if you want preferences given for your existing businesses, it will cost more but the returns could be immense. Israel is an unusual situation because it is not directly self-funding; i.e., the aid given to Israel is at least not supposed to be returned to be used to lobby the government again the following year. No such prohibition exists for agriculture (and particularly sugar) or insurance, among many, many others.The only other thing the government needs do is to is to keep the general population unencumbered enough that they're really not interested in uncovering the Byzantine details of the special deals cut for so many people.

>the US government is the best investment in the worldYes, it's highly leveraged and in addition can be completely market neutral - you can hedge yourself by giving to both parties simultaneously

*****For an adequately organized group with a common interest, the US government is the best investment in the world. Depending upon your interest, you can buy as much of the government as you need for anywhere from about $4 million to about $50 million a year, and your return will be easily ten times your investment.*****So why didn't the US tobacco companies, with their billions in cash, buy their way out of the zillion-dollar tobacco settlement?*****Israel is an unusual situation because it is not directly self-funding*****Israel is like the seed of a flower, which we are trying to preserve dormant in anticipation the surrounding forest will burn itself down.MP

QuoteOriginally posted by: cekpetWhy shouldn't an orthodox Jew run for President?Because, according to his religion, it's OK to screw goys, who represent the majority of the population of the United StatesWell, according to Richard Nixon's religion, violence is always wrong. But that didn't seem to do any good for Cambodia...Anyway, while there are interpretations of Orthodox Judaism -- and no doubt some practitioners thereof -- that holds a brutally anti-gentile attitude, I have no reason to believe that Lieberman fallows any of these. Do you?

QuoteOriginally posted by: MobPsychoSo why didn't the US tobacco companies, with their billions in cash, buy their way out of the zillion-dollar tobacco settlement?Because they failed to keep the general population feeling unencumbered enough by their business to ignore it.

"i think the point is that the relevant prophecies require the jews to return to the holy land before judgement day can occur."Thank you MJ, I'm sure that's the correct version.

>I have no reason to believe that Lieberman fallows any of these. Do you?Of course not. But, I would rather err on the side of caution (not that I really care). It's like in most countriespeople who have dual citizenship can't hold public office (hmm, i guess that disqualifies me...). I think it's a similar type of deal.

QuoteOriginally posted by: cekpetOf course not. But, I would rather err on the side of caution (not that I really care). It's like in most countriespeople who have dual citizenship can't hold public office (hmm, i guess that disqualifies me...). I think it's a similar type of deal.Well, I'm unaware of anyone insisting that you must vote for Lieberman, if you are even a US citizen, so I suggest that you not do so. But are you suggesting that because you would rather err on the side of caution, he should be prohibited from even running?