QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenWell, it's certainly beyond my ken to comment on any of the deeper meanings of Judaism or any other religion.But there are these behaviors, many of which I see as clearly wrong -- though apparently you do not -- which seem to be relics of the attitudes if not the direct instructions of these 'rare examples.'(I would also point out that the infamous 'gored ox' example of inequality is in the Torah and not just the Talmud.)There is, first of all, the notion of Jewish separatism. There are myriad angles on this -- is it essential, or is it a reaction to persecution? And is it even wrong -- who is to say where anyone should live and with whom one should associate? For me, though, a bright line is at least cast with regard to what is done to accomplish separatism, and the persecution of the Palestinians -- the original land thefts and ethnic cleansing; the ongoing assault on well-being and dignity -- cross that line. And, certainly in Israel, Jewish separatism and the radical pursuit of it are not just the venue of some New Testament burning nutters.So why the separatism? I guess the 'reaction to persecution' argument is that a safe haven for the Jews is needed. But this begs the question of whether Israel is the safest place in the world to be Jewish; I would tend to think anywhere in the US (barring perhaps Alabama and Idaho ...) are more safe. And also, for quite a while the US was pressured to limit immigration from Soviet Jews, in order that they could better be directed to Israel -- exactly what value is served by limiting the options of Soviet Jews?And then there is the general contempt for Arabs exhibited VERY broadly in and by Israel. Some of this is probably just standard European racism, as Sephardic Jews might tell you. But all of it?And the 'New Testament burning nutters' -- why does Israel coddle them so? I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the only way to get the host of medical and social services generally provided by the government in Israel (although, arguably, they are really provided by the US government ...) without serving in the military is to be a Jewish religious student, a very high percentage of which are of the 'New Testament burning nutter' variety. We let the neo-Nazis march in the US, but we certainly don't go out of our way to make their lives easier. Why does Israel do this for the 'New Testament burning nutters?'This is total bullshit from the beginning to end! I wonder what 40 years old pension consultant Marsden is doing on the forum for quantitative finance? Did FBI close all websites for pedofiles where Marsden used to hang up?

Actually, it is the Mishna and Talmud that give the example of the gored ox of the gentile - the discussion there is how to define the word 'neighbor' used in the Torah. I think the passage below sums it up better than what I could say:QuoteThe arbitrariness of the Mishnah is undisguised. A gentile at fault must always reimburse his Jewish victim fully, as if he were negligent, while a Jew at fault against a gentile goes scot-free. Indeed, guilt seems to depend entirely on whose ox is being gored! The blatant inequity would draw the ire of anti-semites down through the ages. It is worthy of note, however, that the talmudic discussion on this passage of the Mishnah does not gloss over the problem. In fact, it zeroes right in on the inconsistent application of the narrow definition of "neighbor." If you interpret the word exclusively, then the Mishnah should also exonerate a gentile who damages a Jew. And if not, a Jew damaging a gentile should likewise be held liable.gored oxQuoteAnd then there is the general contempt for Arabs exhibited VERY broadly in and by Israel. Some of this is probably just standard European racism, as Sephardic Jews might tell you. But all of it?I would say that a very small percentage of Israel shares traditional Orientalist views of Arabs. The hatred comes from the war and the fear.QuoteI believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the only way to get the host of medical and social services generally provided by the government in Israel (although, arguably, they are really provided by the US government ...) without serving in the military is to be a Jewish religious studentHospitals in Israel serve all Israeli citizens including Arabs.

tErrrd --It's kind of flattering that you go to all this effort to find out things about me. For my part, I don't care to know anything about you.

Bronto --I've erred on a couple things. First, you are correct that the Torah does not go into the particulars of the 'gored ox' matter; I based my statement on a religious, Jewish site that told the story of the Roman investigation into the Torah, I'm pretty sure. Second, my dope on Israel's social insurance is very dated; the law was re-written in 1995 to do away with the discrimination I'd mentioned (although see this site regarding lapses between practice and law).But we need look no further than you to see Jewish contempt for Palestinians: you hold your attachment to the territory of Israel to be more valid than any attachment of any Palestinian. Indeed, you hold the attachment of Ashkenazim in the early 20th century who had never even seen the place to be more valid than the attachment of a Palestinian whose ancestors had lived there for as far back as any records go.If you can see that the inequalities noted by Prof. Shahak were wrong, why cannot you see that this prejudicial and biased attitude of yours is also wrong?

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenIt's kind of flattering that .... Nothing to be flattered about, you fucking moron! This is not gay pub and nobody is making you complements in order to pick you up! Who listens seriously your advices about pensions? Illegal mexicans? Or your palestinians chums from Gaza? I can not imagine more pathetic picture than pension adviser without friends and family in some shithole who spends all his useless life posting crap about Israel. Do you think you will get a personal camel from newly elected Iranian president? Or may be king Abdala will allow you to lick his ass impressed by what you did to Yassir?

QuoteBut we need look no further than you to see Jewish contempt for Palestinians: you hold your attachment to the territory of Israel to be more valid than any attachment of any Palestinian.Since we have been discussing Jewish texts, I thought I might share with you an idea about the opening verse of Genesis:The Midrash (pre-Talmudic/post Biblical literature) asks 'why did the Torah have to start with the statement "in the beginning God created heaven and earth" - since it is really a book of Law - should it not have started with the first Commandment regarding celebrating the first of every lunar month?' The Midrash offers the following: 'Since the Israelites would have to go to the Land in the future (ie from the time of Moses writing the Torah) - the nations of the world will surely turn to them and say "you are a nation of Brigands - you stole the land of the 7 Nations!" to which the answer will be "In the beginning God created heaven and Earth", the earth is God's and all that is in it".This Midrash has often been misinterpreted as implying that Jews have a divine right to the Land, becasue after all, this is God's will.'But the deep significance of the Midrash', according to Rabbi/Professor Yishyahu Leibowitz 'is that no nation has the right to any land, for the owner of all the land is God.'I think this is a profound idea with implications that that I don't have the right to kick someone out of their home.QuoteIndeed, you hold the attachment of Ashkenazim in the early 20th century who had never even seen the place to be more valid than the attachment of a Palestinian whose ancestors had lived there for as far back as any records go.I think that you are crediting me with the following logic: Jews were justified in holding on to their dreams of a return to Zion--->therefore they were justified in returning to Zion -----> therefore displacement/occupation of Palestinians is OK. The first 2 statement represent my views on returning to Israel from Europe and the Middle East, but not the final part. And I believe that there is a difference between land pre and post 67. Pre 67, I'm not willing to budge an inch. I don't think that I can. Post 67 - well, the Occupation should end. It was a strategic error which even Ben Gurion advised against.

QuotePre 67, I'm not willing to budge an inch. I don't think that I can. Post 67 - well, the Occupation should end. It was a strategic error which even Ben Gurion advised against. I believe that is the position of the Palestinian leadership. Let's hope that this becomes a more widely shared opinion.

QuoteOriginally posted by: ErrrbQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenIt's kind of flattering that .... Nothing to be flattered about, you fucking moron! This is not gay pub and nobody is making you complements in order to pick you up! Who listens seriously your advices about pensions? Illegal mexicans? Or your palestinians chums from Gaza? I can not imagine more pathetic picture than pension adviser without friends and family in some shithole who spends all his useless life posting crap about Israel. Do you think you will get a personal camel from newly elected Iranian president? Or may be king Abdala will allow you to lick his ass impressed by what you did to Yassir?Nothing like a balanced debate, eh errrb?

TraderJoe, there are no balanced debates with MadameArse! In order to have a debate with it, first should one find area where he is competent more than my dog. I honestly fail to do so. May be we should talk about creating indian state on the place where Maryland now.

[delete- double]

There's no point getting het up about anything Marsden thinks, Errrb. It's a disgrace for someone like you, I think.

QuoteI believe that is the position of the Palestinian leadership. Let's hope that this becomes a more widely shared opinion. Indeed. And don't forget that includes groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and countries like Iran who sponsor their activities.

Indeed. And don't forget that includes groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and countries like Iran who sponsor their activities.How does this work, exactly ?I've done a fair bit of work for the British Treasury, and I just have visions of state sponsored terrorism run by civil servants.Do they have competitive tenders where Hamas and Islamic Juhad bid against each other ?Civil servants are loathe to waste tax payer's money, and try to address this by specifying exactly what they get, often in relatively large documents, and given the nature of the work presumably ore anxious thatthis is carried out according to their interpretation of Islamic standards. This rather implies a committe that argues for weeks on end about whether radios are an abomination excpet when used to detonate a bomb.Also civil servants will want to know that the work is carried out, and expect reports, status meetings and cost/benefit analysis.But the really cool job must be the chief accountant for Islamic Jihad. He must exist, and does he have business cards ?

QuoteOriginally posted by: brontosaurusQuoteI believe that is the position of the Palestinian leadership. Let's hope that this becomes a more widely shared opinion. Indeed. And don't forget that includes groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and countries like Iran who sponsor their activities.Well, I sincerely think that if a decent agreement (~67), these groups will progressively stop their armed activities and try enter the regular political life. The main reason, being that I think that the great majority of Palestinians are ready to settle on the 67 borders. Even the talk about the right of return has stopped being serious a long time ago, what is discussed instead is how to somehow compensate the refugees: a minority (may be 200 000 max if any) could be allowed back in what is now Israel, others would be compensated financially and would move to the future Palestinian state, and some would be helped to settle definitively in the countries in which they currently live (Syria, Jordan, Lebanon....). All the talk about destroying Israel, etc, is just talk, not serious anymore. Palestinians have realized and accepted since the Oslo accords that the best they can get is 67. Iran does not count. As soon, as hamas and Jihad enter the regular political life of a future Palestinian state if any, they won't need Iran anyways, especially Hamas. And frankly I think that Iran's help is not substantial ( at least for the Palestinian groups, with the Hezbollah it is different).

QuoteAll the talk about destroying Israel, etc, is just talk, not serious anymorenonsense. QuotePalestinians have realized and accepted since the Oslo accords that the best they can get is 67.Are you Palestinian? I don't think you know what you are talking about. That is like saying that the settlers have accepted the principles of Oslo. QuoteIran does not countAh right, it's missiles can't reach Israel and it doesn't talk about using them at all.QuoteAs soon, as hamas and Jihad enter the regular political life of a future Palestinian state if any, they won't need Iran anyways, especially Hamas.Thay are already in the day to day political life, and I am sure that iran will continue to pursue it's interests in any way it can though Israel's enemies.I honestly can't be bothered to get into a tit for tat debate again, we have been down this road a million times.