As such he is capable of subtlety and is smart.Subtlety is not a characteristic of which even Bill's admires ascribe to him.

he believes that this distracted him from his duties to fire missiles into the Sudan to destroy Osama's camel and tent. Eh ?Clinton did fire missiles at Osama.Both Bush and Clinton have a touching, yet misplaced faith in missiles.Saddam survived several attacks from cruise where he was not in a bunker.Americans aren't up for hand to hand fighting, which is what it sometimes takes. Thus Osama and Saddam survived many attacks. The blast radius from a cruise isn't very large, and there aren't many of them.

Bush is the biggest idiot that walked the planet. God forbid he enters a second term.. if so Mars seems like a safer place than mother earth. He is the devil incarnate. Blair is his lap dog and together they have destroyed everything so many millions of people who in the past have shed blood for. Namely FREEDOM Just wanted to add my 5 cents in case Gutanomo Bay beckons me!!!!!!!!!!

Warrior,I hope you have fun on Mars! Send a postcard please. DCFC,You said yourself that you are not American and I bet you never served in an infantry unit in your country either so how would you know if Americans aren't up for hand-to-hand fighting? It's not a good feeling and I can reasonably say that no soldier anywhere wants to fight hand-to-hand they would much rather use their rifle. Actually US, UK, Spain, Italy, Poland and a few other countries (sorry if I didn't mention your counrty) are willing to give there lives for freedom to the Iraqi people. I bet your country men aren't willing to die for the Iraqi people.War is hell and innocent people die. We see it more now because of the press but its always been there. There is not anymore friendly fire accidents now then in WWI, WWII, etc.. If anything there is alot less. One of the things that I believe the US did wrong is by sending so many reservist to Iraq. These troops are weekend warriors with very little training. The government wants to get something back from them for paying for their education so they send them instead of active personal. I believe 30% of the US troops in Iraq are reservists. This is why we have friendly fire incidents and prisoner abuse cases. Remember these soldiers are BORED 90% of the time which they spend in Iraq. Human do really stupid shit out of boredom. Gore couldn't even win his own state! If he did he would be president. I personally think that Clinton helped Bush get elected by not campaigning for Gore!In general I think Bush has been a damn good president! He might not be the best public speaker; like President Clinton, but does that really matter. I don't think so. The economy is much better now then when he took office. Only history will tell if this Iraqi liberation was the right thing to do. I believe the Iraqi people will be better off in the long run. Did oil play a factor in the war? Probably, but that just shows that it takes an economic need for foreign countries to fix international problems. If Sudan had as much oil as Iraq the international community would be there fixing their problems. People complain about everything and when someone does something about it they still complain. NATO and the UN have a huge responsibility and its not doing what it was created to do. If they would have acted the US, UK, and a few other countries would not have taken action on their own. But Germany, Russian and France had their own agenda opposite of the US and UK so the rest of the world is fucked. I don't see people complaining about these countries selling weapons to Iraq and they refused to send troops to Iraq even now when the Iraqi people are in charge they stand by and do nothing.

A key problem with "helping" the USA is that America doesn't do cooperation. At all. Either it is in charge, or it flounces away and does its own thing.The people I know personaly who hate Americans most aren't Moslems, or left wing fanatics, they are British soldiers. It is politically expedient for Britain to be nice to the USA, but at the cost of having British soldiers taking orders from Americans. They don't like it, and the quality of training in command for American officers is dismal. This is with the advantage of a common language, which you don't get from a Russian conscript.You said yourself that you are not American and I bet you never served in an infantry unit in your country either so how would you know if Americans aren't up for hand-to-hand fighting? I apologise, I was clumsy in the way I wrote this.I meant to say that the US government and public are much more averse to ground combat than most other nations.I have no reason to believe that US troops are more averse to close combat, though the lack of bayonet training betrays problems with their officers.My point was that to kill Osama, Clinton should have followed up the bombing with troops. The same applies to Saddam. We had a good fix on him, right at the start of the war. Again remote munitions were used. A few brave professionals would probably have taken him out saving many lives.I have no doubt that there would have been plenty of volunteers, but the failing was higher up, and in the public mind. A failed missile attack works well on TV as a good try, but a failed mission like this would inevitably has been unpopular with the public and thus the command structure is too risk averse. By "risk" of course I mean protecting their own butts.I bet your country men aren't willing to die for the Iraqi people.I'm British...One of the things that I believe the US did wrong is by sending so many reservist to Iraq. These troops are weekend warriors with very little training. The really big screw ups seem to have been by the professionals. The torture incidents were mostly carried out by "professionals" as well. As I understand it, the reason that we found out about it before it got any worse was due to weekend warriors with consciences.The government wants to get something back from them for paying for their education so they send them instead of active personal. You want to pay more taxes to have huge piles of soldiers permanently on call ?Even if you did, many people simply don't want to be a soldier full time, so you'd have manpower problems causing both increased cost and lower quality.I believe 30% of the US troops in Iraq are reservists. This is why we have friendly fire incidents and prisoner abuse cases. Most friendly fire was in the phase of the war where a much higher % were full time troops, and the soliders I see being charged for torture seem to be full timers as well.Remember these soldiers are BORED 90% of the time which they spend in Iraq. Human do really stupid shit out of boredom.Cuts both ways.The coalition has done nothing about the immense level of unemployment in Iraq. Apparently this varies from 50-90% in some places. Bored young men with guns is not good whatever "side" they are on.Gore couldn't even win his own state! If he did he would be president. I personally think that Clinton helped Bush get elected by not campaigning for Gore!The American process does not deliver the finest of its population into high office. I read almost as much about Mrs. Kerry as her husband. Indeed the term "Mrs. Kerry" has occupied a depressing % of the US media.In general I think Bush has been a damn good president! He might not be the best public speaker; like President Clinton, but does that really matter.Yes, it does. After 9/11 he ran away and hid. When he did appear he looked scared, the impression we got was of a recovering alocholic desparately trying not to drink again (or having done it). Chelsea Clinton looked and sounded more presedential, as did Dick Cheney.Maybe this was Bush's attempt to look sombre and statesmanlike. If so, it failed.I believe the Iraqi people will be better off in the long run. Ah, so there are two of us. I fear we are nearly alone.NATO and the UN have a huge responsibility and its not doing what it was created to do.Indeed, and a clear reason that the UN doesn't work is that the USA stops it from doing so, and even when it doesn't stop it, provides very little help.But Germany, Russian and France had their own agenda opposite of the US and UK so the rest of the world is fucked. You have to be careful here. Russia and France did have their own commercial and political agendas.Germany, on the other had, very loudly said it did not believe the bullshit about WMDs. Recall that Germany helped build Iraq's infrastructure (including many bunkers), and has a decent intelligence service. As it turned out Germany took a principled stand and was proved correct. They disagreed with us but honourably, unlike the Russians, Chinese or French. Germans, for obvious historical reasons have a respectable aversion to sending troops into other countries. Hard to condemn this 100%. Awkward obviously, but hardly evil. Same applies to Japan.I don't see people complaining about these countries selling weapons to Iraq and they refused to send troops to Iraq even now when the Iraqi people are in charge they stand by and do nothing.Not obvious what they could do.France only has a relatively small professional army, and the Russian ability to support a professional force at any distance isn't all that good.With all due respect to the qualities of the russian soldier, they are about the worst peacekeepers in the world. I'd be happy having Russians fighting alongside me, but to keep the peace I'd rather try sending 250,000 rabid wolves into Iraq.

Marine.. please answer me this one question? Just who did the US liberate the Iraqi people from? If your morals and standards are the ones used to judge the rest of the world.. please liberate the starving people of North Korea (over 2m have died-plus they have nukes.. so thats a NO GO AREA) Sudan (an even greater number of people have starved or died through a brutal regime) Somalia (shit..you got your arse whipped there..). Clearly,the US standards do not have any consistency..maybe, let me advocate a little thought!. Perhaps this war on terror really is a phony war. Because, why should they find Osma bin laden or any number of the other "terrorists". It makes no sense if they did find them.. .. then what? The world is a safer place? Can we all then go back to living in a better world... Orwell said in order to control the masses, create an unseen enemy. communism is dead long live Terroism!

please answer me this one question? Just who did the US liberate the Iraqi people from? The Iraqis.They'd dug themselves into a hole. My guess is that they'll come out ahead. Saddam seemed to kill about 1% of the population a year, the coaltion are nowhere near that number. It is tempting to blame Saddam, but there were a vast number of Iraqis only too happy to follow him.As a thought experiment, imagine that he'd been assasinated by the CIA (don't laugh, they may have an agent, somewhere).Would Iraq have suddenly become a nice place ? Hard to see it. Orwell said in order to control the masses, create an unseen enemy. communism is dead long live Terroism! People quote Orwell a lot.Being quotable isn't the same as being right or useful. The USA has made many errors, and done any number of bad things. However it is pure fantsay that the threat against them was created on purpose. Even at its most cynical, it is poor policy to allow terrorism. Fact is that terrorism makes leaders look weak as well as incompetent. 9/11 not only pointed out fuckups, but practically every organ of the US government, from intelligence to emergency services looks bad. This makes the authority of the government weaken. Government power is based upon bluff, Orwell, like a lot of socialists believed in the stability of systems, even bad ones. Fact is that no government has the resources to oppress everyone, and it doesn't take that many bluff callers to make a state ungovernable.He also believed, like many others in "efficient dictatorships". The fact that there ain't any, and never have been doesn't seem to sway this viewpoint.It is interesting to read about Orwell. He was fucked up, even the British media who treat him as a secular saint accept he was out of it for most of his life.

I am not entirely sure what you are advocating here. Are you saying that the US was right to invade Iraq to save the Iraqis from themselves? If so, this is the whole point about the total falseness of the war in Iraq. I do not hear or see too many Iraqis calling out..please save ourselves from each other.. Infact, I see a lot of images of tears and anguish every day from the self same people whom we so nobly want to protect. This western ideology of democracy will NOT work in these countries. Look at Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait.. Are you telling me that all these countries embrace the west's democracy?NO they dont!If this war was such a righteous act why the hell did the arseholes in power have to lie to the very people that put them there? Would Blair/Bush have had the support of the people if they actually told the truth? No they invaded Iraq as a convenience so that the bigger picture of money, oil, power can still be in the hands of the few. To kill or maim an Iraqi in the name of “ protecting them from Terrorism” is no better than Saddam killing any number of people.I quoted Orwell because clearly the essence of this war and what’s happening to the wider world is one where another unseen enemy has been born- Terrorism. I certainly would have questioned any government that spends 10% of GDP on weapons of war when clearly there is no real enemy. How many voices do you hear questioning this now? Infact defence spending has gone up in nearly all of the western countries. Do you hear/see voices from the Iraqis for the US/UK (+all the other bribed countries forces) to stay in Iraq? Infact, they are trying to kick us out so that they can sort out their own destiny. How would you like an Iraqi in the US/UK telling you or stopping you in your own homeland? It does appear that power is for the so called mighty! But also power appears to be for those who have weapons of carnal might. Lets just say this bully boy tactics of the US would not be used against countries like North Korea. I see millions of people dying, being brutalised, and any number of sins being committed there. So why not send troops there and be so self righteous?

Warrior,If you could kill 10 people today and you know for a fact that it would save 100 people in a year would you? This is a morale issue which governments are faced with everyday. Is it better for 5000 Iraqis to die now and save how many of thousands of Iraqis in the next ten+ years because Saddam and his sons are gone? That's the choice Bush/Blair made and they will have to live with it. Whether it was a good/bad wrong/right decision, well only history will tell.I am an American living in London. I meet people from Afghanistan and Iraq all the time in London. I always ask there opinion on the wars in their country. I have not found one that said they were against the war. They all said their country is a better place now. But the comments that they do tell me on why they don’t like Americans are mainly that the governments never fulfilled 100% of the promises. This is bad but it’s also hard to do especially with little or no help for the international community. Because even though America might start out fulfilling their promise but the press at home in the US goes against the politicians and they have to make a decision whether it's worth their job/office to stay focused or to change and go with the current public opinion. I generally think, that most politicians thought they were going to help the people of Iraq and Afghanistan by invading and toppling the current governments.I see people criticize Bush/Blair constantly on Iraq. But what I don't see is people complaining about the innocent civilians being kidnapped and violently executed for driving a truck of food and supplies which are for the Iraq people. Innocent Iraqis die because the military is trying to catch these murderers. THEY ARE NOT SOLDIERS THEY ARE MURDERERS! They claim they fight for Islam and the Iraqi people but they aren't helping them. They are only hurting them. Why don't you think about these issues before you start claiming about Bush this or Blair that. A civilized professional soldier would never cut the head off of an innocent civilian!

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarineWarrior,I see people criticize Bush/Blair constantly on Iraq. But what I don't see is people complaining about the innocent civilians being kidnapped and violently executed for driving a truck of food and supplies which are for the Iraq people. Innocent Iraqis die because the military is trying to catch these murderers. THEY ARE NOT SOLDIERS THEY ARE MURDERERS! They claim they fight for Islam and the Iraqi people but they aren't helping them. They are only hurting them. Why don't you think about these issues before you start claiming about Bush this or Blair that. A civilized professional soldier would never cut the head off of an innocent civilian!A civilised professional soldier would never lead a naked terrified prisoner around on a dog lead whilst spectators photograph it. Does that mena the US occupation forces are NOT SOLDIERS?If the USA were invaded would you expect the various militias to just lie down and take it? No - you'd expect them to do exactly what yyou are excreating the Iraqi's from doing now.

perhaps Marine you should be an American living in Iraq/Afganistan and then ask the locals the question you so politley ask in london? Maybe you will hear a different reaction from the Iraqis/Afghans. These are proud people and the US/UK are invading their land and homes. Lets just say the bullshit and brutuality you have shown in Iraq does not qualify your soliders in any better light than mudererers. Infact there are so many hushed investigations that are going on by the milatary police to cases for 1st degree murder/rape. You must be glad you are an American living in london..hate to think if you were an Iraqi living in Iraq

linuxuser99,QuoteA civilised professional soldier would never lead a naked terrified prisoner around on a dog lead whilst spectators photograph it. Does that mena the US occupation forces are NOT SOLDIERS?I can tell from your remarks above that you were never a soldier and cannot understand what it's like to be one! From my experience as a US Marine, I find that some undisciplined soldiers will do some really fucked up things out of boredom. This is nothing new it been happing for hundreds of years! I do not agree with it! It is a problem in ALL military organizations. If life was a perfect world it wouldn't happen.If you had a choice as a POW to have your head cut off or paraded around as a dog naked I wonder what you would pick? You are an IDIOT for even comparing the two! QuoteIf the USA were invaded would you expect the various militias to just lie down and take it? No - you'd expect them to do exactly what yyou are excreating the Iraqi's from doing now.Learn English dude or don't post on an English message bored. So you claim its the local Iraqi militias kidnapping civilians and murdering them! Your are even more of an idiot now then 2 seconds ago!

Warrior,QuoteLets just say the bullshit and brutuality you have shown in Iraq does not qualify your soliders in any better light than mudererers. Infact there are so many hushed investigations that are going on by the milatary police to cases for 1st degree murder/rape. You must be glad you are an American living in london..hate to think if you were an Iraqi living in IraqAnd you know all about these hushed cases how? I bet you read TheOnion! (www.theonion.com). Warrior, I guess you are just as much an idiot as linuxuser99 from your above comment! The only warrior you will ever be is a "Doom/Quake Warrior"!And what makes you think I wasn't in Iraq during the first war!

I am not entirely sure what you are advocating here. Are you saying that the US was right to invade Iraq to save the Iraqis from themselves? No, quite. The reasons for war were some combination of lies and incompetence. But if the war had been to liberate the Iraqis from other Iraqis, then it would have been justified because I believe that as a result of the war, they are (on average) better off. I do not hear or see too many Iraqis calling out..please save ourselves from each other.. Infact, I see a lot of images of tears and anguish every day from the self same people whom we so nobly want to protect. Listening to Iraqis going on about what they want, is like trying to run a mental institution based upon the patients voting on their treatment.The Iraqis who ran away from Saddam seem a pretty manky bunch, the clerics are trying to reintroduce the bronze age, and many people did very well out of Saddam, or at least thought they did. However, I believe that there is a large %, possibly even a majority of Iraqis who are rational enough to see that the best way of improving their lives is some sort of democracy with some sort of rule of law. Few of these appear on TV.This western ideology of democracy will NOT work in these countries.Maybe it will not, but I don't believe that it can'tI don't believe that Iraqis are inherently inferior to those in civilised countries. That's a belief that sometimes I find hard to defend, but I genuinely believe they are smart enough, and care enough about their kids to make it work. Maybe I'm wrong. Look at Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait.. Are you telling me that all these countries embrace the west's democracy?NO they dont!No, they don't. I don't expect them to last. I see their future as a choice between being craters, slaves of the Israelis, or refugees wandering around being murdered raped and shot at. They are crap places, run badly by scum. I believe arabs and persians can do better, and it isn't that hard to help them.If this war was such a righteous act why the hell did the arseholes in power have to lie to the very people that put them there?They did right by accident. It's happened before. America attacked Japan and Germany not out of any hatred for Nazism or the Japanese Empire, the US was quite happy to sell them things, and was very forgiving of them killing many American civillians, until they got too bad. Only real difference between Iraq and Nazi Germany was the US attacked first.Would Blair/Bush have had the support of the people if they actually told the truth?Bizarrely, yes.I can see why you think they wouldn't, but look at the opinion polls. We now know that they were some mix of stupidity and badness drove them to this war. Yet they don't suffer much. I'd give Bush 60/40 in the election, certainly there is little fallout for him. Blair has survived, and with the same sort of support/ No they invaded Iraq as a convenience so that the bigger picture of money, oil, power can still be in the hands of the few. I think it was a combination. Actually, I'm in the camp of those who see it as mostly a fuckup.To kill or maim an Iraqi in the name of “ protecting them from Terrorism” is no better than Saddam killing any number of people.To allow people to be killed because you do nothing and are fearful of hurting anyone to achieve good is just as bad.I certainly would have questioned any government that spends 10% of GDP on weapons of war when clearly there is no real enemy. How many voices do you hear questioning this now? Infact defence spending has gone up in nearly all of the western countries. I agree about spending, but find your logic hard to follow. For your theory to be true, terrorism would have to be directly caused on purpose by western leaders. I don't believe that, though I believe they were reckless of causing it, morally that's pretty much as bad, but I have real problems with most conspiracy theories, including this one.Do you hear/see voices from the Iraqis for the US/UK (+all the other bribed countries forces) to stay in Iraq?Actually I do. No idea how representative they are, neither do you. I certainly don't think that 1,000 me with guns should decide, do you ?Maybe they represent the majority, maybe not, how do you know ? Infact, they are trying to kick us out so that they can sort out their own destiny. Some are, some aren't. Given the Iraqis track record in making decisions, frankly I don't hold their opinion with a great deal of respect.How would you like an Iraqi in the US/UK telling you or stopping you in your own homeland?Wouldn't like it at all.That is why I'm keen that my country runs itself well enough that this doesn't happen. Iraqis failed to do this, and were lucky the consequences were so light.It does appear that power is for the so called mighty! Why doth treason never prosper, what's the reason ?For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.Power is with the mighty, that's what power is. So why not send troops there and be so self righteous? Because they woud lose.In a straight fight between the USA and N.Korea, millions would die, and the US and its allies would give up and go home.Tragic though N.Korea is, our weapons can only make things worse.

Marine....The world is full of Idiots when you look in the mirror...