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QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperQuoteOriginally posted by: shoegazerDid I say I wished to be part of the rapture anywhere in my statements. NO! Did my original statement say that I didn't want to be part of it? NO!wow, that really clears things up, NOT.Let's try this one more time.Do you or do you not want to take part in the rapture, in the event that it occurs ?YES OR NO ?It's a yes/no question.Do you or do you not know how to freaking read? Clearly NOT! I didn't express any particular desire about the rapture one way or another did I. How is my personal position with regard to the rapture at all relevent here ppauper? I don't believe in it. Personally I think the vast majority of chrsitian dogma is crap. What does this matter? That in no way impacts your highly arrogant position of said event. I didn't say I wanted to come along, I said WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO DECIDE! No one, your opinion doesn't matter. If there is a rapture, just because you believe I will be left behind doesn't matter in the slightest does it. If there is a God, and a rapture occurs in my lifetime, I don't think God is going to be using your standards or opinions to determine who is left behind. Just because you read a book which is riddled with contradictions, doesn't mean that it truly tells you what if any basis for selection of such an event, if it were to take place, would be. You presume too much. This was my point. You presume you are chosen and I or DCFC or dave, at alia are not. That is incredibly arrogant. Whether or not I wish to be part of said event is entirely moot. You are not the arbiteur are you? Lets presume the fairy story is correct. That a rapture will take place and some will go to happy land and other will be left to suffer eternal damnation, whatever that means. Then under that scenario perhaps I would wish to take part. Well lets see, I don't really believe in the literal jesus, I don't attend church, synagoge, mosque, ashram etc., and I haven't given away all my possesions, hate my father, mother, family so I guess I'm not going. But I don't believe what you believe. Anyway your question yes/no question is pointless because it entirely avoided any criticism in the first place. All you could do was turn this into a yes/no question, so that you can somehow feel all righteous because your included and I am not. But you know what ppauper, if should the rapture occur, a word not used in the bible by the way, and you and your ilk are included in said event, then I'm not sure I want to be included. Doesn't sound like much of an afterlife to me. Sure as hell isn't paradise. An eternity with a bunch of self-righteous, holier than thou, dittoheads. Thanks, no thanks. My idea of morality isn't spewing a bunch of dogmatic "christian" vitrol and telling evenyone else how they're sinners and wont be included in the big afterparty. What would jesus do?

ppauper, you are a moron. First, I never said anything originally about wanting to be included or not. My comment made no insinuation one way or another. That you don't understand, can't comprehend or are willfully blind to this basic fact is sad. My comment was with regard to the type of people who profess such beliefs, epsecially in a dogmatic form and that the whole cult of personality surrounding it is disturbing.Your response wasn't relevent since I didn't profess as desire one way or another. Instead your comment was a self-serving, ignorant, arrogant "witicism" which I addressed. I NEVER stated a preference one way or another, merely commented on your apparent belief of your own "worth" in the eyes of God and I questioned that. Your sad attempts to paint my comments as if they expressed a desire one way or another, and then that I was fence sitting, are misguided. Like DCFC, I think your notions of God, the "rapture" are trite, contradictory, naive, etc. That you can't parse the nuance of my replies suggests you are incapable of anything but strict black/white thinking. Hell you can't even quote me properly. Your quote isn't accurate, highly misleading since you eliminate all context and it shows your own bias. Is this what passes for discourse with you?oy vey! So ppauper are you going to be caught up?

If the rapture does occur and if certain forumers gets "taken" I for one would like to be "left behind". Given that I think the whole thing is a pile of garbage then there is no fear of that then.

ppapuper, in terms of this being a strict yes/no question, it reminds me of how I handle the Hare Krishnas and other outliers in airports trying to convert me to "the truth".I tell them there are two types of people in the world, those who insist there are two types of people in the world and everyone else.I then say, "You (the Hare Krishna, the Moonie, the LaRouche supporter) are in the former group. You think that there are only two types of people in the world, the converted and the non-converted.""I disagree", I continue. I am not in that class. I think there are more than two types of people in the world.It's the only response I've found that leaves them dumbfounded, speechless and allows me time to escape....There's more to life than being a Manichean.Matthew

The point of the rapture is that the saved are directly assimiliated into God's love without all this messy death business.The deal is that God then gives you an eternity of happyness.Part of the joy of being a born again Christian is knowing that you will be saved. For that to be real, others must fail to be saved, else what is the point ?One observes thar humans value things for being exclusive and rare.Thus it is part of God's plan that for the saved to be truly joyous in his grace, you need a lot of cannon fodder like us.Christians are doing all this stuff for a reward, and thus are being pragmatic. Since if you believed this stuff it is obviously rational to do everything you can to take part in the ratpure.I don't see how you can call working for payment like this as moral, wise, perhaps but cuddling up to someone for personal rewards is called many things, but rarely is it love, and certainly is not proof of a high ethical standard.But what of us who choose not to take part in the rapture ?We are acting without thought for our own personal benefit, but as demonstrated above we are playing a part in God's plan. Thus I rather feel our moral position is better.

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperLet's review what you did say:QuoteOriginally posted by: shoegazerI agree with ya dave, this whole phenomenon leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Very scary. It in someway seems tantamount to a self serving justification for anything against anyone, cause I'm a born again true believer and thus rapture awaits me. How this is different than 70 something virgins beats me. There is definately a cult like mentaility among a growing group in the US, who are "radical" christian who form part of the strong pro israel support in the US because, as they believe, armageddon must occur in israel and has to occur as a jewish state. I find it funny they think they are somehow the "chosen" people. Haven't they read their bibles just a little more carefully?That is one of the single most stupid, moronic, idiotic, ill informed posts that has ever been made on this board.Stupid is as stupid says.Look at the phrase "It in someway seems tantamount to a self serving justification for anything against anyone in juxtaposition with the insane statement: "How this is different than 70 something virgins beats me."Are born again christians blowing up busloads of schoolchildren in order to go to paradise ?No. That's one difference of many.Are you really stupid enough, moronic enough, insane enough, psychotic enough to see some sort of moral equivalence between someone like Billy Graham or Mother Teresa on the christian side and someone like Mohamed Atta on the muslim side ?Wow ppauper, you really have difficulty don't you. Do born again christians Kill doctors who perform abortions, something that is legally allowed? Yes they do. Did Christians persecute numerous other religous creed and faiths and wage holy wars against them once upon a time. Again yes. So there is nothing inherent in christianity that precludes evil or in islam that is inherently evil. That you can't see this is willfull blindness on your part. Hitler was a christian ppauper, so by your standards, if Islam and muslims are "evil" bad, nasty whatever adjective you'd like to toss about then I think Christianity can rank right up there with the best of them and I don't even have to go back to the bloody crusades, I can stay within recent bloody memory. That there are christians who support israel in all forms militant or not because it necessitates the beginning of the rapture is incredibly immoral and is an unqualified evil. To support any action being taken and disregard any negative outcomes for your own self serving dogmatic views is not moral at all. Funny you critising my post as moronic, stupid etc. I'm fairly certain you can't find the broad side of mediocre, much less intelligent debate, if it landed on you like an 800 pound sumo wrestler. That you can't parse even the minor amounts of nuance in my posts and instead resort to argumentum ad hominum and argumentum ad populum debate is evidence of the former.I never made a comment about my desire to participate in the rapture. I merely critized those who act without regard because they believe they are chosen. That you think you are chosen, and then profess to tell me that you have it on word from God that I'm not, is not only arrogant its bordering on insanity. Are you hearing voices? I guess I'm ill-informed then since I don't have God's ear. Again ppauper, you can't even quote me accurately. I said, "I'm not sure I want to be included if, IF it includes the like of you and your ilk." That is, rabid, black/white, holier than thou, self-righteous, arrogant, mouth breathers who think they are chosen. DCFC's is entirely right about his assessment of the moral position of said individuals. To only believe in Christ, God, etc because it is "pragmatic", because of a type Pascal's wager reasoning isn't moral at all. It's entirely self-serving. It's all about self interest. There's no morality involved at all. You do it for a reward at th end.

Where in the New Testament does Jesus himself personally talk about this "rapture" anyway?Or is that just from his hordes of spin doctors and hangers-on that surrounded him?Matthew

QuoteOriginally posted by: daveangelIf the rapture does occur and if certain forumers gets "taken" I for one would like to be "left behind". Given that I think the whole thing is a pile of garbage then there is no fear of that then.No kidding. If this is what passes for blissful eternity, I think I'd leave it. In fact I question any God whose basis for deciding is what these intellectually defunct cretins think. Oy vey!I love bible literalists. The problem with them is when you point out contradictions in the bible or the fact that they no longer advocate slavery even though the bible does, or any number of other inconsistencies with their current worldview they tell you that that particular passage was ment to be interpreted metaphorically, or that the bible was just acknowledging a common practice of ancient times and not condoning such behaviour. They want it both ways. Well I'll tell you what I want. I want one of those bibles, you know the ones, the ones they apparently have, the ones where there is an L or an M or C for Literal, Metaphorical, and Cultural so that I can know which passages are which. I don't want to be confused. In fact perhaps colour coded instead. That would be sweet. The I too can be on the path to Christian enlightenment, maybe I can even become a promise keeper.

Do born again christians Kill doctors who perform abortions, something that is legally allowed(1) How many abortion doctors have been murdered?(2) Does the mere fact of something being legal, mean that it is moral.?The Nazis arguedthat their treatment of the Jews was perfectly legal, because they had passed lawsto that effect.

There's no morality involved at all. You do it for a reward at th endAnd what, pray tell, do you believe the purpose of moral philosophy is?