Quotestatguy - I think the people who play the office politics better manage to stay on a higher salary for longerHow about people who start their own company, weasel?

Quotestatguy - Sadly some people get greedy and will never have enough as there is always someone richer unless you Bill GatesOr Vladimir Putin.

NYT 6/25/08 has an article about why fewer engineers are going into government military jobs.The following mentions how some [alot] choose finance.“Ten to 20 years ago, many mechanical engineers went into a limited number of industrial sectors, automotive and aerospace — including defense — among the largest,” James D. Jones, associate head of the School of Mechanical Engineering at Purdue, said by e-mail. Recent surveys of Purdue graduates, Mr. Jones said, show engineering students heading into a much broader array of jobs, including finance, management and medicine.At M.I.T., a 2007 survey showed that 28.7 percent of undergraduates were headed for work in finance, 13.7 in management consulting and just 7.5 percent in aerospace and defense. The top 10 employers included McKinsey, Google, Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers, Bain, JPMorgan and Oracle — but not a single military contractor or government office. The survey showed that the average annual starting salary in finance and high-tech was more than $70,000, compared with $37,000 at the Defense Department. The average in the military industry was $61,000.M.I.T. does not have comparable survey data for 10 or 15 years ago, but officials there say the trend is unmistakable.

QuoteOriginally posted by: jfuquaThe survey showed that the average annual starting salary in finance and high-tech was more than $70,000, compared with $37,000 at the Defense Department. The average in the military industry was $61,000.Twenty years ago there was this thing called the "Cold War" that required large numbers of engineers. The year I graduated was 1991, and it was a very, very dark year for people who graduated Course 16 (Aero-Astro). World peace!!! End of communism!!! No more worries about nuclear annihilation!!! Ummmm..... I'm going to be unemployed, right?

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: jfuquaThe survey showed that the average annual starting salary in finance and high-tech was more than $70,000, compared with $37,000 at the Defense Department. The average in the military industry was $61,000.Twenty years ago there was this thing called the "Cold War" that required large numbers of engineers. The year I graduated was 1991, and it was a very, very dark year for people who graduated Course 16 (Aero-Astro). World peace!!! End of communism!!! No more worries about nuclear annihilation!!! Ummmm..... I'm going to be unemployed, right?No, sadly not.

QuoteOriginally posted by: StatGuyHowever, I wouldn’t want to be in the situation of , say, a quant developer earning say 200k pounds in London and get made redundant at age 45 only to find training roles in C++ available with pay around 40k.If you lose a job as a developer then you probably won't get a job as a trainer. It's unlikely that people will pay much money for a C++ training if there are no development roles. If you do lose a senior position, it's likely that there has been a major industry shift, at which point you aren't going to be going from developer to trainer, but rather from senior developer to junior pastry chef or shoe salesman or flying saucer washer. Shifts in industry are nasty because your job disappears at the same time everyone else's job disappears.QuoteThat would be tough to stomach. I think the people who play the office politics better manage to stay on a higher salary for longerIf the ship sinks, everyone goes with it. Quoteeven they will probably fall at some stage. No one is invincible even with a PhD or even if you started coding at 3/4 years old etc... the day will come when someone will do it better than you. There are many, many people who can do my job better than I can, but they are busy doing other things. As long as there is enough work for everyone, then it doesn't matter that there are people that can do my job better than be because they are busy doing their job, and are probably getting paid more than I am.One thing that I do like about NYC is that there are entire communities of people that are just better than I am at any given skill. It's easy to be the top C++ programmer or investment banker in North Podunk, Iowa population 300, but what's the point? Better to be in a community where you are the dummy, since being around people that are better (and in some cases much, much better) than you are will improve your skills.QuoteSadly some people get greedy and will never have enough as there is always someone richer unless you Bill Gates.Why sad? I'm one of those greedy people that will never have enough. I'll never be smart enough. I'll never be rich enough. I'll never be good enough. In the unlikely event that I end up the richest person on the planet, I'll just give away the money and start over. And up until the time I take my last breath, I'll always be struggling for more, more, more. The thing I love about capitalism is that it takes these primal passions which can be quite destructive, and then directs them toward social good. I'm doing everything I can to squeeze an extra dollar from the competition's bonus check. Which is fine since they are doing everything they can to squeeze an extra dollar from mine. Life is a struggle. A brutal, nasty, intense struggle against the forces of chaos and entropy, and it's an ultimately futile struggle since we all are doing to die. Spending whatever time you have trying to get more stuff and fighting people that are trying to take it away from you... I don't see what is sad about that. I think it's quite fun, which is why I'm here.

Which goes to show why it's not a bad thing to train finance people rather than engineers. Bin-Laden is no dummy. Among all of the places in the world, why did he hit New York City? It's because he thinks (correctly) that Wall Street is a greater danger to him than a thousand nuclear warheads. The goal of Wall Street is to make people rich, and large numbers of rich people who are more interested in shopping in the mall than strapping dynamite to themselves is dangerous to him.

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: StatGuyHowever, I wouldn’t want to be in the situation of , say, a quant developer earning say 200k pounds in London and get made redundant at age 45 only to find training roles in C++ available with pay around 40k.If you lose a job as a developer then you probably won't get a job as a trainer. It's unlikely that people will pay much money for a C++ training if there are no development roles. If you do lose a senior position, it's likely that there has been a major industry shift, at which point you aren't going to be going from developer to trainer, but rather from senior developer to junior pastry chef or shoe salesman or flying saucer washer. Shifts in industry are nasty because your job disappears at the same time everyone else's job disappears.QuoteThat would be tough to stomach. I think the people who play the office politics better manage to stay on a higher salary for longerIf the ship sinks, everyone goes with it. Quoteeven they will probably fall at some stage. No one is invincible even with a PhD or even if you started coding at 3/4 years old etc... the day will come when someone will do it better than you. There are many, many people who can do my job better than I can, but they are busy doing other things. As long as there is enough work for everyone, then it doesn't matter that there are people that can do my job better than be because they are busy doing their job, and are probably getting paid more than I am.One thing that I do like about NYC is that there are entire communities of people that are just better than I am at any given skill. It's easy to be the top C++ programmer or investment banker in North Podunk, Iowa population 300, but what's the point? Better to be in a community where you are the dummy, since being around people that are better (and in some cases much, much better) than you are will improve your skills.QuoteSadly some people get greedy and will never have enough as there is always someone richer unless you Bill Gates.Why sad? I'm one of those greedy people that will never have enough. I'll never be smart enough. I'll never be rich enough. I'll never be good enough. In the unlikely event that I end up the richest person on the planet, I'll just give away the money and start over. And up until the time I take my last breath, I'll always be struggling for more, more, more. The thing I love about capitalism is that it takes these primal passions which can be quite destructive, and then directs them toward social good. I'm doing everything I can to squeeze an extra dollar from the competition's bonus check. Which is fine since they are doing everything they can to squeeze an extra dollar from mine. Life is a struggle. A brutal, nasty, intense struggle against the forces of chaos and entropy, and it's an ultimately futile struggle since we all are doing to die. Spending whatever time you have trying to get more stuff and fighting people that are trying to take it away from you... I don't see what is sad about that. I think it's quite fun, which is why I'm here.Good to see you haven't lost the plot twofish.

QuoteIf you lose a job as a developer then you probably won't get a job as a trainer. It's unlikely that people will pay much money for a C++ training if there are no development rolesThe point here is that whilst a developer may earn 200k, there will come a time when they can get someone to do the same role for 100k (younger and cheaper). So there will still be demand for dev roles just that you didn't manage to keep your value at 200k which is pretty tough in technical roles. So if you get made redundant a trainer role is an alternative.QuoteIf the ship sinks, everyone goes with it. The ones who play the office politics better stay a while longer tho QuoteThere are many, many people who can do my job better than I can, but they are busy doing other things. As long as there is enough work for everyone, then it doesn't matter that there are people that can do my job better than be because they are busy doing their job, and are probably getting paid more than I am.How modest, I guess you know your virtual functions from functions being a beginner QuoteWhy sad? I'm one of those greedy people that will never have enough. I'll never be smart enough. I'll never be rich enough. I'll never be good enough. In the unlikely event that I end up the richest person on the planet, I'll just give away the money and start over. I understand this way of thinking. It always gives you something to achieve therefore you keep learning. But not everyone is driven by high achievement like you. Stats Guy

The reason I think engineers are heading to W.S....Just wander through the cubicle farms of any large tech company and tell me this isn't factory work!

QuoteOriginally posted by: StatGuyThe point here is that whilst a developer may earn 200k, there will come a time when they can get someone to do the same role for 100k (younger and cheaper).The question comes up that if someone can do the same thing for 100K, how did you ever get someone to pay 200K for it, or why the 200K QD isn't being hired for the 100K job.This does happen that there are "bubble salaries" but in those situations, you need to take the money while you can and then don't imagine that they are sustainable..Having gone through several industry downturns and been around other people who have, I don't think your description of what happens is very realistic. What usually happens when there is general industry crash is that they don't layoff the experienced people first. The first thing that they do is to stop hiring entry level. Whatever jobs are there get taken by experienced people with a salary cut.One really has to distinguish between cohort effects and age effects. There aren't that many 60 year old quantitative developers or web designers, but another way of saying this is that there aren't many quantitative developers or web designers who entered the job market in 1973. To see what happens to old programmers you have to follow the career track of someone that did enter the job market in 1973. They likely went into telecommunications or oil.One of the nice things about working in the oil industry is that you see a lot of 50-60 year old programmers, and it's a good experience for a 25 year old to see an extremely sharp 65 year old programmer. QuoteI understand this way of thinking. It always gives you something to achieve therefore you keep learning. But not everyone is driven by high achievement like you.But a disproportionately high number of people in finance and in NYC seem to be driven by similar things. If you are easily content with your surroundings, you just aren't probably going to end up in NYC, and if you don't get some thrill out of this sort of intense competitiveness, you probably are going to leave at the first chance you get. The danger comes in if you lose sight of the fact that most of it is just a game to keep yourself busy until you die.

QuoteThe question comes up that if someone can do the same thing for 100K, how did you ever get someone to pay 200K for it, or why the 200K QD isn't being hired for the 100K job.They moved more times in their career history than someone who was on 100k. Also on each move they negotiated better than the person on 100k, so it comes to being good at sales as well as C++ which is rare. In my field some consultants in business get paid 15k a day, and others 200 pounds a day, so there is a huge disparity in pay and it comes down to who you know and how well you build relationships with them. C++ geeks aren’t always the best people at sales, so they remain on a lower salary than someone who has less C++ but can sell better. Being a geek can only get you so far in business, sure well paid but you will not always be the top dog in business.Stats Guy

QuoteOriginally posted by: StatGuyQuoteThe question comes up that if someone can do the same thing for 100K, how did you ever get someone to pay 200K for it, or why the 200K QD isn't being hired for the 100K job.They moved more times in their career history than someone who was on 100k. Also on each move they negotiated better than the person on 100k, so it comes to being good at sales as well as C++ which is rare. In my field some consultants in business get paid 15k a day, and others 200 pounds a day, so there is a huge disparity in pay and it comes down to who you know and how well you build relationships with them. C++ geeks aren’t always the best people at sales, so they remain on a lower salary than someone who has less C++ but can sell better. Being a geek can only get you so far in business, sure well paid but you will not always be the top dog in business.Stats GuyI'm sure Jim Simons and co. would be interested in hearing your opinions on this matter. Dude, can you at least read up on what being a quant actually is... ??? Thanks.

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishTwenty years ago there was this thing called the "Cold War" that required large numbers of engineers. The year I graduated was 1991, and it was a very, very dark year for people who graduated Course 16 (Aero-Astro). World peace!!! End of communism!!! No more worries about nuclear annihilation!!! Ummmm..... I'm going to be unemployed, right?surely it's not as dark as you paint it:you're chinese, following the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, chinese students were allowed to remain in the US following graduation,which meant twofish was allowed to stay here rather than being put on a slow boat back to china.Plus, would :Cold War" industries really have employed someone from a communist country ?

With regard to the computer skills mentioned.You will need a better career strategy than just being a good programmer, the world is flooded with good programmers.In general programming gets easier as you get older and there is value to expeirence, its just many western cultures do not really value engineering or programming and place more value on management and business.There is a lot or 'Marketecture' about, not all new tech is good tech, business and IT can be a bit like a goldfish, those that have been around a while add value with their pure common sense. Much of the 'new' stuff in programming is not really that new, programming has fashions too. Its quite likely the 45 year old will have seen something similar before and be able to pick it up quickly.