More like, gimme your number, I want to trade with you!

MarineOH! i'm scared...please don't talk to my boss...please please please...you dumb twat!! i know that 1 million is less than 10 % of 60 million. if you're so smart how come you assume that everyone who did not show up supports the war...if enough people think the outsourced stuff they get is shit, they will not outsource...so what's the problem?i'm not saying outsourcing is the best way forward. but if so many people are doing it, there must be some benefits. so let suply and demand decide to what extent it happens. whats the matter? scared of becoming redundant? FDAXAt the right prices, anytimeDCFCi agree with some of the points you make. but if you look at the bbc archives for 16 feb 2003, you'll realise that 1 million was an accurate number. btw india became independant in 1947 not 1948.

marinei do not live (never have) or work in london. nor am i a citizen of the UK...btw only soverign contries have citizens...not puppets of the US like you guys...you are just another island attached to the US,,,sort of like hawai with shitty weather

Derivativestrader: At the right prices, anytimeSure, you would think they are right, wouldn't you. Why else would you trade?

Oh dear, one of the few reasons for supporting the war with Iraq was that the people who speak strongest against it were often so crap that one just assumes they're wrong on everything.It is of course a fact that the USA is so powerful that the sovereignty of all other states is compromised, Britain included. Add in factors such as international treaties and economic ties and there is no state which is 100% sovereign, except maybe N.Korea.Britain is hardly a lackey of the USA, Americans thought the IRA was pretty cool until September 11 showed them the true nature of terrorism. An entertaining, but not very covered issue is the British selling arms to Canada. There are a variety of territorial issues between the USA and Canada, and the USA blew a fuse when Britain sold Canada the ability to patrol these areas. Although completey ininhabited, there is vast wealth under the sea in these regions.To be sure, we follow the US lead on many things. On a cynical level I believe that you either cooperate with a big bastard of square up to fight it out and hope for luck. When Blair flew over the Atlantic to hold Bush's hand he improved US/UK relations a huge amount. France has taken the opposite tack. It has not managed to stop the USA from doing what it wanted to do, but has made an enemy. Thus it gets the worst of both worlds.

QuoteOH! i'm scared...please don't talk to my boss...please please please...you dumb twat!! Darn, the last time I've seen this level of emotional intensity was when I told a russian "trader" that he did not understand anything about IR trading (he was talking about using technical analysis to trade bonds). As for outsourcing - untill domain-specific experts appear, domain-specific outsourcing will fail. I would not expect a trading system to come out of india or russia and if it did, i would not use it.

I run a small company as a outsourcer in Taiwan. I have to say outsourcing always have problems. All the previous success stories can't guarantee a success in next project, even all participaints, project managers, programmers, and users, are the same as in previous ones. Although many risks can be eliminated by software engineering techniques, but it is usual that users don't know how to control the risk, and the outsourcers, absolutely, run the project in a lowest cost way. If you want to have a great successful outsourcing experience, you might ask what level of CMM (Capability Maturity Models) the outsourcer has. Of course the higher the level, the more money you have to pay them.Outsourcing to a foreign company is another story, I think. I don't think IT people in Taiwan (or China) have the knowledge to do some of the projects you guys suppose to outsource. We, in Taiwan, are doing some valuation and risk management system for interest rate swaps and options. Yes that's the most INNOVATIVE project we can do in Taiwan, and most of financial institutes can't do by themselves. The situation in China is worse, the instruments they can trade are only stocks, commodity futures, and government bonds. (I don't know what it like in India.) You can't find experienced system analysts and programmers to do the software you want. The spec is the most important if you want to have something operatable, and the result might not be what exactly as you think it should be.Some large companes have a software center in China or India to train someone up. The initial cost is high and it takes several years to have benefits, but the cost is low in a longer term. A programmer in China cost only 1/3 compared to a Taiwanese programmer with the same experience. Most of big Taiwanese software companies have development centers in China for more than 10 years. I think outsourcing to a Chinese company is risky and not necessary, but it's better to have a development team in China or India if your company is large enough.

QuoteOriginally posted by: slevinQuoteOH! i'm scared...please don't talk to my boss...please please please...you dumb twat!! Darn, the last time I've seen this level of emotional intensity was when I told a russian "trader" that he did not understand anything about IR trading (he was talking about using technical analysis to trade bonds). As for outsourcing - untill domain-specific experts appear, domain-specific outsourcing will fail. I would not expect a trading system to come out of india or russia and if it did, i would not use it.SlevinAll i'm saying is - if enough people thought like you, outsourcing would not be a problem at all. Maybe it is not suitable for developing a trading platform, but there is probably more money to be made from processing payrolls for manufacturing companies (because of the volumes) than in building trading systems. i agree with your point on domain specific outsourcing.as for emotions running high, i think the last time something like "maybe i'll talk to your employers abt your ignorance" worked on me was when my kindergarten teacher threatened to talk to my parents if i did not behave well...also, it's pretty stupid to tell someone to "shut the f*ck up or get back home" when you don't even know if he's in your country...i was merely responding to thatas an aside, although i've never done it, it's not unheard of to use technical analysis to trade bondsAn indian "trader"

QuoteDCFC: Oh dear, one of the few reasons for supporting the war with Iraq was that the people who speak strongest against it were often so crap that one just assumes they're wrong on everything.so you are saying: "let's see who is against it, then i'll be pro war"!?certainly one way to come up with an "opinion" without bothering to use your brain.

so you are saying: "let's see who is against it, then i'll be pro war"!?Certailny saves effort however, my point was despair at the low quality of oposition to the war, which I am sure undermined itself.It seems to consist mainly of :Americans are bad, americans are doing this, therefore it is bad.Iraq is a soveriegn nation, so murdering its citizens is an internal matter.There are other bad people, so until the USA kills all them it has no right to act.An undemocratic body consisting mainly of dictators and their lackeys can't make up it's mind, so until the UN does make up its mind war is wrong. It would be alright if Mugabe, Kim, Mbeki, et al all said so in the UN.Some americans are Jewish, most Iraqis are moslems, it is worse for a nation which contains some Jews to bomb 5 year old kids than for the local moslems to do it themselves.Israel is bad, therefore its allies are bad, therefore people who agree with its allies are bad, and therefore anyone who hates Israel must be a really cool guy.It will hurt French commercial interests.All pretty crap arguments, I never heard one single cogent argument against war.Doesn't mean the war was right of course, but those who opposed it so badly must bear part of the guilt.

I never heard one single cogent argument against war.i'd say, when it comes to war, the burden of proof is on those who try to justify it. and did you hear a valid argument pro war? all points brought forward by great dumb gwb and tb were already valid 5, 10, 20 years ago - except maybe for the weapons of mass destruction stuff (but they did not believe in that themeselves). so then the only question is, why now? and i guess the answer for that is pretty obvious 1. the proclaimed war on terror (never heard anything more stupid anyways) needs to go on for various reasons. 2. the us simply needs iraq as a strategic/military ally in the middle east (especially after loosing Saudi Arabia after 9-11).so for me the main reason was that the war was simply in the interest of the us. one can like that or not (I do not), but i'd prefer if gwb just simply said so. no american president (except maybe for Roosevelt in ww2) ever cared for people being killed by some idiotic dictator. so give me a break arguing for the war because saddam is so fucking cruel to his people.

QuoteOriginally posted by: DCFCSo N,hearing that, good people are selling hot-dog on NY seems to be an miss allocation of this human capital.Indeed it does, but I reject the 50 year horizon. British and Indian cultures were actually merging, so that many Indian cultural items such and democracy as their appalling bureaucracy and were British in origin, they even drove out the Brits using people like Gandhi who were trained up by them.

'd say, when it comes to war, the burden of proof is on those who try to justify it. A lot of people would agree with you on that, however we are talking persuasion, not morality.and did you hear a valid argument pro war? A few, like Saddam was a scumbag who murdered his own people.Neither the case for, nor against was was ever properly made. That left it up to those who wanted war.

DCFC: like Saddam was a scumbag who murdered his own peoplethis was also the case 20 years ago, when the us (and europe) were helping saddam fight iran. so there is nothing new in that! so definately not a valid argument pro war.DCFC: Neither the case for, nor against was was ever properly made. That left it up to those who wanted warAgreed. But it is stupid to argue pro war with arguments knowing they will not hold under critical examination.DCFC: we are talking persuasion, not morality.War means killing people per definition. to make that decision (to start a war) without taking moral aspects into account is imho plain wrong and totally fucked up.

This is not a phenomenon restricted to outsourcing abroad. EDS has taken a contract to run IT at ABN Amro. Presumably EDS told ABN Amro that they had piles of cheap people who knew lots about capital markets.Except of course there is now a pool of increasingly desparate recruiters running round everyone who has ever claimed to work on Fixed Income IT. However for EDS to get the business it must charge Amro less than staff cost, and to make a profit must pay their staff even less then that.Guess what ?Yep, me and various others get calls offering pathetic money to undo the effects of EDS not actually having many people who know capital markets.