QuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3The distinguishing characteristic of a slave is that he does not have access to organized means of violence to secure his freedomBZZZZZTTTT!!Wrong. The slave does not know the definition for your Western word "freedom." If he is genetically similar to his master, he is member of a tribe. But he is able to adapt his worker-ant selflessness whether as a beta member of a pack of animals, or as an order-follower in a more sophisticated household to which he has been transplanted as a slave.But the slave never says "give me liberty or give me death" because he has never heard of Edmund Burke, or the concept of a human being, the individual "man qua man," supreme in his own sphere. Nor are many individuals comfortable as individuals, but seek a lower rung in a tribe with a common perception of goals, values, and challenges.Only one in a billion men has access to enough violence to fulfill all his animal impulses, were his wish to be a successful animal. But men who cannot realize a paradise through force are not slaves.

A man is free when he has to obey no other man but only the law. There is a space between freedom and slavery where a man chooses which other he will have to obey; probably most of you are in this state. Gardener's statement of slavery's distinguishing characteristic is a good one; Stephen Murray is crafting a private language, as is his wont.So lets see ... based on the keen calculations from mencey, it takes about 270 kWhs to raise a cubic meter of water by a hundred meters, ignoring inefficiencies. If we are very generous and assume that a kilowatt hour costs $0.05, then by monkey's ... I mean mencey's ... calculation, it costs about $13.50 to raise a cubic meter of water a hundred meters.Do we like mencey's arithmetic?

QuoteOriginally posted by: menceyQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenGo away, you filth.after you, .................. ladies, children and the elderly firstLOL

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenA man is free when he has to obey no other man but only the law.You are parroting something you heard about "freedom" being "freedom from coercion," rather than freedom to steal, for example. But coercion - whether into celebrating a religion or whatever - is not the distniguishing characteristic that separates a "slave" from something else. There are multiple words: serf, subject, slave taxpayer. The distingusihing characteristic of a slave, is that he comes from a culture without either law or coercion, in his mind these concepts do not exist.QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenThere is a space between freedom and slavery where a man chooses which other he will have to obey; probably most of you are in this state.When you posit a spectrum with a linear variation of characteristics along which all labels fall, you descend into inane idiocy, and end up saying nothing, as is your wont. Your brain has to be pretty silly to fall for this sort of thing. In fact, most of us are "free" according to the Western/individual definition, by living for ourselves even if the tribe benefits. And we could not be more free according to this definition, by escaping the price system, or by quitting our jobs. Capitalism is not "another form of slavery" any more than being forced to breath is a form of coercion.If a dog were a human, he would be like a slave. But a pet has no use for freedom, even if it has the legs to obtain it. A man wins his "freedom" according to the Western deifinition, not by force, but by the merit of his pursuits when self-directed. A man also stops being an employee, and starts his own business, when he no longer needs anyone to tell him what the customer wants. But these are not all one spectrum, and these shorter and sloppier spectra do not even exist in the culture of a slave.

QuoteSyrian TV calls Condi Rice 'ugly,' 'malicious' Follows Palestinian coverage of 'black spinster,' 'colored dark skin lady'On the heels of a recent article reporting Palestinian newspapers have been using racist rhetoric to describe Condoleezza Rice, Syrian television has aired a program in which the secretary of state's "ugliness" was the topic. Syrian author Colette Khuri, being interviewed last week on her country's main state-controlled television network, was asked to comment on recent statements by Rice referring to the "birth pangs" of a new Middle East. According to a translation provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute, Khuri replied, "If I were asked, as an author, to portray malice, I would sketch an image of Condoleezza Rice. This woman is grim, both in the way she looks and in the way she is inside. I don't know why she is always malicious from within." The interviewer chimed in, "In any case, her external ugliness reflects her internal ugliness." Khuri responded, "It's the other way around, my dear. It is the internal ugliness that is reflected in one's face. A woman can only be ugly from the inside. Any woman can be beautiful, if she is beautiful from within. It is the internal ugliness of this woman (Rice) that reflects her looks." Rice-bashing has been a popular sport in other Middle East state-run media the past few weeks. As reported earlier, several outlets here controlled by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party have been using racist rhetoric in their coverage of Rice, referring to the American representative as the "black woman," "raven," "colored dark skinned black lady" and "black spinster." According to a translation by Palestinian Media Watch, the PA daily Al Hayat Al Jadida detailed anti-American protests held last month in Ramallah, describing Rice as a "raven" who "brings only destruction." Al Hayat Al Jadida featured pictures of protesters brandishing anti-Rice placards, some reading, "Murderer Rice go to Hell" and "Get out." One placard had Rice drinking the blood of dead babies and stating, "I need more blood." A cartoon last month in the PA controlled Al Quds newspaper depicted Rice pregnant with a monkey. A caption read, "Rice speaks about birth of new Middle East." In a previous article by Al Hayat Al Jadida, Rice is described three times as the "black woman," and her father, who was an ordained Presbyterian minister, was called the "black clergyman [who filled Rice's head with Bible stories]." The article warned, "Beware of this 'black spinster,' we don't want to say 'the black widow' out of respect for her femininity and her intelligence." QuoteCondoleezza Rice depicted in Al Quds as pregnant with a monkey. The image's caption read, "Rice speaks about birth of new Middle East."

QuoteOriginally posted by: balajiQuoteOriginally posted by: menceyQuoteSure, Europeans where free men and the african slaves. Still does not contradice my point if you read my post well. Europeans imposed slavery but were not slaves themselves. Can u explain me what you are free from?!Are you "free" at all mencey? I can list a hundred things you are a slave to, without knowing where you live and of what origin you are.QuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3QuoteSure, Europeans where free men and the african slaves. Still does not contradice my point if you read my post well. Europeans imposed slavery but were not slaves themselves. Before we enter in any kind of moral considerations, I condem slavery and also please bear in mind that there still slavery in Africa (Sudan for instance).Then what was the point of your statement? Some people are born slaves and deserve to be slaves? what? Btw, your first statement is wrong, are you telling me that there has been no instances of slavery since 300 BC in the western world?Western Europe is based on the Roman and Greek tradition of citizenship, critical thinking, law and parlaments. The western world has a long tradition of democracy, and of course with phases of authoritarian regimes in between. Even in times qhen there have been a absolutism like in the frech illustration (all for the people but without the people), it was absolutely different perspective than for instance tyrans in the Middle East.The arab world has a long tradition of absolute rulers and tyrans, called it Dario the Persian King, to the Califas, or any other tyrant or dictator that comes to your mind up to nowadays. Even today in the 21st century the best example of democracy you can show is Lebanon, where the country is "kidnapped" by the actions of Hezbola. Plus your religion, Islam means submisson to the will of Allah or God.Islam is an Arabic word connotes submission ,surrender and obedience . As a religion ,Islam stands for complete submission and obedience to Allah. to be a good muslim you have to be obedient, to God, Allah and his representatives. That's why they blow up themselves, to the glory of Arafat, Nasharrayaf, or Bin Laden. You are slaves, your culture, your tribal and extemely jerarquic societies, your traditions and your religion makes you slaves.The contradiction here is that Islam can also mean peace, but this seems that for suicide bombers and jihaydist there are some room for interpretatation ,.... LOL,............... cannon food, poor ignorants and "beta people" to be sacrified for the wealth, power and glory of their leaders.

Some interesting info's about Islam institutionalization of Slavery. For those who will raise the argument about the "eveil westerners that slaved people"Quote: The West is familiar with the history of slavery in the new world. It was sinful and terrible, and it lasted for several hundred years. And it was abolished mainly through the efforts of Christians in England (Wilberforce, Clarkson) and America (the Abolitionists, primarily Protestant). However, few people in the west know about Islam and slavery. Most would be surprised that Islam authorizes the taking of slaves as spoils of war. From the days that Muhammad drew his sword to rob and conquer non-Muslims to this very day, Muslims have been taking non-Muslims, and even other black Muslims, as slaves. Muslims were enslaving black Africans long before any slave ships sailed for the New World. Muslims were taking and making slaves all over the lands they had conquered. Later, when slave ships were loaded with black slaves, often, a Muslim slave broker had the human cargo all ready to go. The white Southerners rarely had to go into inland to capture slaves, they were already waiting there, courtesy of some Muslim ruler, and/or slave broker! In many cases, if the black slaves were not sent to the New World, they were sent to the Mideast to be enslaved by Arabs, or kept by other black Muslims as slaves. Islam institutionalized slavery. Muhammad began to take slaves after he moved to Medina, and had power. Slaves were usually taken in raids on nearby Arab tribes, or war, either through offensive or defensive actions. Islam allows the taking of slaves as "booty", or reward for fighting. This has led to numerous "jihads" by Muslim states and tribes to attack other non-Muslim groups and obtain slaves. Islamic jurisprudence laid down regulations for the proper treatment of slaves.

[QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenQuoteOriginally posted by: mencey980.000 joules /3600 = 272,222 kwhThat's pretty funny.Quote.I think you are missing some zeroes. I don't own/manage waterplants like you, but I think that's a lot of energy to move a cubic meter of water, no?Yes you are right, memory sometimes fail. I convert it to watts-hours, instead of kwh, my mistake. But normally we talk about name plate capacity in MW and annualized energy generated from a Power plant. 980.000 joules /3600 = 272,222 Watts/h, in Kwh shall be 0,272222Thanks

QuoteOriginally posted by: balajiQuoteOriginally posted by: menceyQuoteSure, Europeans where free men and the african slaves. Still does not contradice my point if you read my post well. Europeans imposed slavery but were not slaves themselves. Can u explain me what you are free from?!Are you "free" at all mencey? I can list a hundred things you are a slave to, without knowing where you live and of what origin you are.We all are slaves of work and our financial needs, ..... I need to eat, work and pay my bills,,.... but this does not make a man different to another

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenA man is free when he has to obey no other man but only the law. There is a space between freedom and slavery where a man chooses which other he will have to obey; probably most of you are in this state. Here we agree

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenSo lets see ... based on the keen calculations from mencey, it takes about 270 kWhs to raise a cubic meter of water by a hundred meters, ignoring inefficiencies. If we are very generous and assume that a kilowatt hour costs $0.05, then by monkey's ... I mean mencey's ... calculation, it costs about $13.50 to raise a cubic meter of water a hundred meters.Do we like mencey's arithmetic?Please do not keep on wasting our time more with this. Weather it cost you 13.50 or peanuts is absolutely irrelevant. My calculations where wrong, the same wrong than your argument of raising water uphill.However it takes about 0.272222 to raise the water 100 meters, therefore it costs you peanuts to raise that water. The real cost that you have is the infrastruture and maintenance, for instance you can utilize the remaining heat from the cooling towers of any power plat to desalinate water. Once the water needs of your cities on the coast have been cover you can utilized your uphill reservoirs to irrigate................ ahhhh................ you do not have reservoirs, then why the heck are you buying weapons? guns or butter,......... Economy class 101 1- With proper water infrastructure you do not have to raise any water uphill, did you got it? is the third time I am telling you. 2- Some of your agriculture like bananas and tomatoes are most likely grown close to sea level, so once more you do not have to raise water uphill. 3- The bekaa valley has the litani river, isn't it,... so no water uphill there either. 4- according to CIA factbook Lebanon is a water-surplus state in a water-deficit region, therfore I assume enpught water is "produced" in springs in teh mountains,.... therefore you need dams and reservoirs to keep that water instead fo bloody rockets for hezbola.YOU DO NOT NEED TO BRING DESALINATED WATER UP HILL,............ DID YOU FINALLY GOT IT? Boy, stop wasting our time with this, is the third time I explain it to you, are you deft or are you stupid?

Look at the comments of this Iranian Dear Muslims: what is that you do not understandSunday, 23 July 2006We, the non-Muslims—the infidels, heathens, unbelievers, apostates, enemies of Allah, najis (soiled), as you prefer to call us—would like to know what is it that you don’t understand and what it is that makes you behave so badly toward us? You blame us for your problems and believe if we embrace Islam and help establish the Islamic Ummeh the earth would be cleansed of us, transformed to paradise, and all your problems disappear.Respectfully, we disagree. We believe that you and your system of belief are at the core of your problems; that you need to critically examine the facts rather than conveniently blame others for your ills. Keep in mind that beliefs and ideas make people human, that beliefs are roadmaps of life. To the extent that the roadmap is rational and enlightened, the path of life is illumined, pitfalls are avoided and obstacles are removed. The terrain of life has greatly changed since the roadmap of Islam was given to the wondering primitives of the Arabian Peninsula. The twenty first century presents great challenges and opportunities that demand new ways of thinking and behaving. The doctrine of Islam may have been appropriate for the desert dwellers of some 1400 years ago, the people you yourselves stigmatize as “The Ignorant.” It is dysfunctional today to say the least. As a matter of fact, Islam went astray from the very beginning and inflicted a great deal of suffering on both its followers as well as those who resisted its advance.Early on, the Prophet Muhammad explicitly said, “There is no compulsion in religion.” He further confirmed that admonition, “For you, your religion; and for me, my religion.” Why is it that as soon as you gathered enough power, you violated those exhortations and set out to force your belief and way of life on others at the point of the sword? Further, you conveniently ignored your own teaching by unsheathing your sword at “the people of the book”—Jews and Christians. You spared them death only if they converted or consented to pay you backbreaking religious taxes of Jazyyeh.Your cruel successful subjugation of the people of the Arabian Peninsula whetted your appetite for further conquests. You ventured into the civilized world—to Persia, the Levant, Spain, and eventually to the gates of Vienna. Cruelty and terror were your instruments of policy—weapons you liberally use today whenever and wherever you are able.Contempt and hostility toward non-Muslims living under your rule as well as those outside of your domain have characterized your attitude and behavior throughout history. Isn’t time to say enough is enough? Is it not now time to stand back and take a good look at what is the root cause of this pathological state of affairs?Life is precious. It is to be protected, nurtured and celebrated. Mankind is moving, perhaps at a glacier pace, toward reconciliation, ever-expanding inclusiveness without any group or ideology imposing itself on others. Any attempt against this trend of unity in diversity is doomed to failure, as exemplified by the demise of fascism and communism. Your charter, the Quran, for most parts, preaches discrimination, death and imposition of its dogma on everyone. Islam, just like fascism and communism, is a dysfunctional ideology that needs to be abandoned. Humanity has matured considerably since the time of Muhammad. In order to continue its forward march, mankind must follow a roadmap appropriate for its age and state of development. It is foolish to insist that a book written over 1400 years ago must serve as the one and only guide for humanity.Progress thrives in a marketplace of free ideas, where beliefs and viewpoints, not people, clash. It is through the unimpeded clash of ideas that the best decisions and actions are reached. Islam is anathema to this invaluable principle. By forcing itself on any and all people it could, Islam violated this vital principle and it aims to continue to do so to this day. Islam’s inflexible and intolerant dogmatism is at the heart of Islamic world’s stagnation and backwardness. It is evident that staying put, so to speak, does not allow going forward. It is not the non-Muslim world, the convenient scapegoat, but Islam itself which is the culprit for your chronic ills.The non-Muslims of the twenty first century treasure freedom in all its forms and are not going to lend their necks passively to the yoke of blind obedience and imitation.Is the present argument too difficult to understand? Is it too threatening to the security of your mindset to concede its validity? Please have the courage and take that fateful step. Leave Islam, as many of us “apostates” have done, and inhale the life-nurturing fragrance of freedom. Islam is a slaveholder. It feels that it owns you; it condemns you as apostate to be beheaded if you dare to leave its chains. The non-Muslims, by contrast, respect you as a free human and support your inalienable right to believe whatever you want to believe—even if it is a non-belief. If you still wish to wrap yourself in your suffocating security blanket—Islam—please keep it to yourself and refrain from forcing it on others.

THIS ARTICLE IS A GOOD ONE, ..............................I SPECIALLY ENJOY THE TERM ISLAMOFASCISTDear Marsden, I do not know if you are an arab, a muslim, a Islamofascist, or simply a useful idiot in the sence of this article, however I dedicate this post to you.Islam's useful IdiotsIslam enjoys a large and influential ally among the non-Muslims: A new generation of “Useful Idiots,” the sort of people Lenin identified living in liberal democracies who furthered the work of communism. This new generation of Useful Idiots also lives in liberal democracies, but serves the cause of Islamofascism—another virulent form of totalitarian ideology.Useful Idiots are naïve, foolish, ignorant of facts, unrealistically idealistic, dreamers, willfully in denial or deceptive. They hail from the ranks of the chronically unhappy, the anarchists, the aspiring revolutionaries, the neurotics who are at war with life, the disaffected alienated from government, corporations, and just about any and all institutions of society. The Useful Idiot can be a billionaire, a movie star, an academe of renown, a politician, or from any other segment of the population. Arguably, the most dangerous variant of the Useful Idiot is the “Politically Correct.” He is the master practitioner of euphemism, hedging, doubletalk, and outright deception.The Useful Idiot derives satisfaction from being anti-establishment. He finds perverse gratification in aiding the forces that aim to dismantle an existing order, whatever it may be: an order he neither approves of nor he feels he belongs to.The Useful Idiot is conflicted and dishonest. He fails to look inside himself and discover the causes of his own problems and unhappiness while he readily enlists himself in causes that validate his distorted perception.Understandably, it is easier to blame others and the outside world than to examine oneself with an eye to self-discovery and self-improvement. Furthermore, criticizing and complaining—liberal practices of the Useful Idiot—require little talent and energy. The Useful Idiot is a great armchair philosopher and “Monday Morning Quarterback.”The Useful Idiot is not the same as a person who honestly has a different point of view. A society without honest and open differences of views is a dead society. Critical, different and fresh ideas are the life blood of a living society—the very anathema of autocracies where the official position is sacrosanct.Even a “normal” person spends a great deal more energy aiming to fix things out there than working to overcome his own flaws and shortcomings, or contribute positively to the larger society. People don’t like to take stock of what they are doing or not doing that is responsible for the conditions they disapprove.But the Useful Idiot takes things much farther. The Useful Idiot, among other things, is a master practitioner of scapegoating. He assigns blame to others while absolving himself of responsibility, has a long handy list of candidates for blaming anything and everything, and by living a distorted life, he contributes to the ills of society.The Useful Idiot may even engage in willful misinformation and deception when it suits him. Terms such as “Political Islam,” or “Radical Islam,” for instance, are contributions of the Useful Idiot. These terms do not even exist in the native parlance of Islam, simply because they are redundant. Islam, by its very nature and according to its charter—the Quran—is a radical political movement. It is the Useful Idiot who sanitizes Islam and misguides the populace by saying that the “real Islam” constitutes the main body of the religion; and, that this main body is non-political and moderate.Regrettably, a large segment of the population goes along with these nonsensical euphemisms depicting Islam because it prefers to believe them. It is less threatening to believe that only a hijacked small segment of Islam is radical or politically driven and that the main body of Islam is indeed moderate and non-political.But Islam is political to the core. In Islam the mosque and state are one and the same—the mosque is the state. This arrangement goes back to the days of Muhammad himself. Islam is also radical in the extreme. Even the “moderate” Islam is radical in its beliefs as well as its deeds. Muslims believe that all non-Muslims, bar none, are hellfire bound and well-deserve being maltreated compared to believers.No radical barbaric act of depravity is unthinkable for Muslims in dealing with others. They have destroyed precious statues of Buddha, leveled sacred monuments of other religions, and bulldozed the cemeteries of non-Muslims—a few examples of their utter extreme contempt toward others.Muslims are radical even in their intrafaith dealings. Various sects and sub-sects pronounce other sects and sub-sects as heretics worthy of death; women are treated as chattel, deprived of many rights; hands are chopped for stealing even a loaf of bread; sexual violation is punished by stoning, and much much more. These are standard day-to-day ways of the mainstream “moderate” Muslims living under the stone-age laws of Sharia.The “moderate” mainstream of Islam has been outright genocidal from inception. Their own historians record that Ali, the first imam of the Shiite and the son-in-law of Muhammad, with the help of another man, beheaded 700 Jewish men in the presence of the Prophet himself. The Prophet of Allah and his disciples took the murdered men’s women and children in slavery. Muslims have been, and continue to be, the most vicious and shameless practitioners of slavery. The slave trade, even today, is a thriving business in some Islamic lands where wealthy, perverted sheikhs purchase children of the poor from traffickers for their sadistic gratification.Muslims are taught deception and lying in the Quran itself—something that Muhammad practiced during his life whenever he found it expedient. Successive Islamic rulers and leaders have done the same. Khomeini, the founder of the 1979 Iranian Revolution, for instance, rallied the people under the banner of democracy. All along his support for democracy was not a commitment of an honest man, but a ruse. As soon as he gathered the reins of power, Khomeini went after the Useful Idiots of his time with vengeance. These best children of Iran, having been thoroughly deceived and used by the crafty phony populist-religionist, had to flee the country to avoid the fate of tens of thousands who were imprisoned or executed by the double-crossing imam.Almost three decades after the tragic Islamic Revolution of 1979, the suffocating rule of Islam casts its death-bearing pal over Iranians. A proud people with enviable heritage is being systematically purged of its sense of identity and forced to think and behave like the barbaric and intolerant Muslims. Iranians who had always treated women with equality, for instance, have seen them reduced by the stone-age clergy to sub-human status of Islamic teaching. Any attempt by the women of Iran to counter the misogynist rule of Muhammad’s mullahs is mercilessly suppressed. Women are beaten, imprisoned, raped and killed just as men are slaughtered without due process or mercy.The lesson is clear. Beware of the Useful Idiots who live in liberal democracies. Knowingly or unknowingly, they serve as the greatest volunteer and effective soldiers of Islam. They pave the way for the advancement of Islam and they will assuredly be among the very first victims of Islam as soon as it assumes power.

Blah blah blah.Can someone summarize this? Here's my guess: "Muslims are evil. Evil, I tell you!"I noticed something about Iran's 1978 revolution. I'm guessing there wasn't anything about how the deposed Shah's Mossad-trained SAVAK police organization would jam glass bottles up prisoner's asses and then break them. But, hey, it was all in good fun, right? Not like these evil, evil Musims -- no sir!And if we're criticizing religions, maybe we should look at what Rabbi Maimonides said about saving drowning gentiles, or what Martin Luther said about the Jews, or probably any number of papal declarations from the Inquisition era. Oh -- but I'm changing the subject, right? It's about the Muslims, the evil, evil Muslims! Never mind that priest molesting the little boy behind his cossack! I am the great and powerful mencey!

Marsden, would you say that there is no such thing as evil, or Americans and Christians are evil but you are just too lazy to move?