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I'm a bit confused over the term "trader". My understanding has always been that a trader is someone who comes up with a trading idea, and then makes sure that the trade is executed. His tools are models developed by quants, and brokers who execute the trades (I refer to brokers as tools in here). If we generalize:Brokers - Low level of sophistication in finance, but hungry (went to business school, but didn't really study)Traders - High level of sophistication in finance, but ignorant in mathematics (studied at business school)Quants - Low level of sophistication in finance, but very good at mathematics (PhD in math, physics, etc.)The list above is not only organized alphabeticaly but also according to the level of overall sophistication (heavy generalisation) in ascending order. But then why do we see so many insinuations(?) that quants wish to become traders?Below is an excerpt from a message in the "Jobs Board"QuoteThey are looking for the following factors; *Phd from a top university *Good programming skills in C++ is ideal *Good financial knowledge You will be taught excellent skills, so you may go onto become either a quantitative analyst/developer or even potentially a trader following success with this bank.Note: "... even potentially a trader following success with this bank."I have a bunch of other examples, but I think this is enough to stress my point. It seems as traders are considered to be better people than quants, shouldn't it be the other way around?Why does so many quants (assumption) want to move into trading? It doesn't seem like a whole lot of traders want to become quants.Is it the money, or do you have another explanation?(I realize that this message could be taken as an insult by a great deal of people, but hey, it's good to be upset once in a while, and I have stressed that this is a heavy generalisation)

Firstly, Traders are Gods.Secondly, some people like maths and don't care about being a trader, they actually like being quants. However, many want to progress to being a trader. There are a number of traded instruments that having a good mathmatical understanding of the prcing etc. are required and hence a quant background is necessary. Conversely, you get some instruments that need little maths understanding. Of course, the type of trader you have counts. Technical, funamental or gut/barrow-boy.If you can be a trader in the first instance, and can skip being a quant - wouldn't you? More money/prestige/heart-attacks/stress/ability to do fuck-all during the day. Look at Daddy, the Almighty, FDAX. Do you think he trades much with the amount of participation he has on wilmott? He has 1, 2 and 5 on my list.

for everyone, it is of course an individual deciison as to where one would gain most utility.but, you must realise that traders tend to be at the top of the food chain at most shops (not going to debate the merits of this here, its purely a positive, rather than a normative statement), hence the widespread desire of a significant proportion of non-traders to move into a trading function.

QuoteFirstly, Traders are Gods.Well, unfortunatly I don't believe in God. But I can see your point, traders are glorified to some extent. QuoteThere are a number of traded instruments that having a good mathmatical understanding of the prcing etc. are required and hence a quant background is necessary.True, but this doesn't explain why a quant would want to become a trader, or maybe partially.QuoteIf you can be a trader in the first instance, and can skip being a quant - wouldn't you?I don't know. I'm sort of aiming at becoming a quant, but I'm not sure I have the stamina so I might settle with just being a trader. QuoteHe [FDAX] has 1, 2 and 5 on my list.?? I need an explanation.

"Look at Daddy, the Almighty, FDAX. Do you think he trades much with the amount of participation he has on wilmott? He has 1, 2 and 5 on my list."so , what does FDAX's rectum taste like?

Quoteso , what does FDAX's rectum taste like? Nonius will tell. FDAX only canes me. FDAX gibt mir Ständer. Er hat eine Schoßglatze. mmmmm

ajohan: Well, unfortunatly I don't believe in God.See, that's your first problem, you really should. ajohan: I don't know. I'm sort of aiming at becoming a quant, but I'm not sure I have the stamina so I might settle with just being a trader. You don't have the stamina to be a quant? Please do become a trader! Nothing like fresh meat in the pond. So, go ahead, jump right in.It's all very easy. May I suggest trading the DAX or the S&P 500?So, to get with the program, this is not really as difficult as it sounds. Back to basics:A trader is someone who trades as a profession. Does a broker trade? No. Does a quant trade? No. Unless he's a quantitative trader... which makes him a trader by definition.You can trade anything... cars, for example. Lots of used car dealers out there, which is nothing more than a... you guessed it.. trader.As far as sophistication goes... what you outline is generally true, not only of financial traders but of all professions. How many particle physicists do you know who run a successful business? There, probably none... how many kids that flunked out of high school are running hugely profitable drug peddling enterprises? More than just a couple...Why is this? My theory is that it's a matter of your vision... if you are of the more, say, mentally-not-so-gifted, you most likely will not see the consequences of your actions, hence you will appear to be risk-taking. If you are to see those, you might be much more averse to taking risk. (there are exceptions, of course, but you wanted a generalization, I believe)Why do quants want to become traders? Why does the particle physicist envy Bill Gates or the guy who owns 4 BMW dealerships around town?clarion: so , what does FDAX's rectum taste like?Why don't you come over and find out?LondonPete: Look at Daddy, the Almighty, FDAX. Do you think he trades much with the amount of participation he has on wilmott? He has 1, 2 and 5 on my listAh... you old flatterer you...

QuoteWell, unfortunatly I don't believe in God.FDAX, is entirely right (as ever!), you can't be a trader if you're not religious.Have you never been on a trading floor!?! Traders are the most religious people on Earth.You should hear me shout out my prayers when a position goes against me. "Please God just move the market this once more....I promise I won't ask again"

FDAXHunter,So you're explanation is the money. Well, I guess the simplest explanation almost always is the correct one, to qoute one of my favorite movies: "First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing, ask: What is it, in itself, what is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?"I share your opinion that ypu need to be stupid, or maybe I should say ignorant, to be successful. But I can't get rid of the nagging feeling that this might be envy speaking.QuoteYou don't have the stamina to be a quant? Please do become a trader! Nothing like fresh meat in the pond. You better watch out, it could be a shark diving in.

Ajohan,envy, as always is a very powerful motivation. Most wars are led because of envy. Money, esteem (why people associate 'esteem' with someone who yells down a mic:"You f***ing c**t! That was my price you f***ing piece of s**t. Give me my price or I swear to your mother I will gut you like the fish you are!!". To that, I have no answer. Probably the same sort of "coolness" people attach to some guy walking into a liquor store with sunglasses and a shotgun, spraying people's brains all over the place.)Fact is: People are strange and more often than not get wrong what's really important. How many girls want to be some anorexic model on the catwalk, doped up on smack and sleeping with every Hollywood producer in sight?Part of the motivation to move from a quant to a trader position may be that you also want to see this stuff in practice. Analogy: You've been building and repairing a race car for the last 5 years. Now you want to drive it!ajohan: You better watch out, it could be a shark diving in. That's ok, you wouldn't be the first shark that I kill...

QuoteThat's ok, you wouldn't be the first shark that I kill... And this is why I'm proud you're my Daddy FDAX

I'm a trader, I think. I'm sailing, I'm sailing, I'm sailing!

QuoteOriginally posted by: NoniusI'm a trader, I think. I'm sailing, I'm sailing, I'm sailing!shit, I did buy some euro warrants, right FDAX? arent I a trader???????

my 2 cents:rule 1: nobody in finance industry seriously works for any other primary motivation than making moneyrule 2: the closer to a source of money, the better the salary--this is generally even true of treasury bureaucratsyou make your own conclusions...e.

Honestly, it's not _directly_ all about the money. At least from my pov, it's about the actionability of things. If you have a job where you go into the office in the morning, ask the boss what you're supposed to do, and then you do it, then you know you have the worst job in the world. Nothing to do but what you're told. Quants have it a bit better, because the level of difficulty isn't too low and nobody can really say exactly what needs to be done. You get to make some independent decisions, for better or for worse. Plus, if nobody understands what's going on without you, or they can't operate without you, then they will ask you questions instead of telling you what to do. This gives you some room to manipulate things.Traders are really in a similar situation. Without them you will lose money and collapse. But they also have their hands on the powder all day long, so if they want to cause a problem, it's pretty easy to do. But don't forget that there are big battles fought between trading and management, where generally speaking, management will have their way. If you won't stop setting up offshore tax trades, you're done - find another desk. Face it: The fun thing about anything is strategizing the outcome, putting it into play, and dealing with the results. I am inspired today because we are blowing up a 3-year, multibillion-dollar bankruptcy because we don't like the results, and because we can do something about it.