wilmott.com

I often hear people on "the Street" mention how limited a trading career is in terms of long term prospects (switching to a different role, transferrable skills, etc.)(I am specifically referring to trading for an investment bank, but it may be generalized)If that holds (correct me if wrong), then how much more limited would a career in sales be?IMHO, a good trader can move to, amongst others, to:- Any risk management role (credit exposure management, market risk, consulting, etc.)- Hedge fund or other investment house- Treasury dept of any large corporation (GE, Ford and the likes)- ManagementWhereas I am under the impression a good salesperson has much more limited scope:- Marketing dept for a large corporation- Consulting- ManagementQuestion is:Do you agree with the idea that a career in sales in more limiting than one in trading in terms of long term opportunities (transferrable skills, experience, market knowledge, etc.)?Thoughts?Cheers

QuoteOriginally posted by: ak2000Whereas I am under the impression a good salesperson has much more limited scope:- Marketing dept for a large corporationHehehe. I suggest you say this during interviews. If you are talking to traders or quants, it will almost certainly get you a good laugh and possibly a job. EQ

haha! On a more serious note, anyone any thoughts on this?Generally speaking, is a career in sales not more limiting than a career in trading in terms of long term opportunities/skills?

QuoteOriginally posted by: ak2000- Marketing dept for a large corporationthey can make quite a lot of money

either one can make a lot of money... it depends on the person.HOWEVER,fundamentally: in one job you are begging for money - in the other you're making it.

JMR,QuoteOriginally posted by: JMRQuoteOriginally posted by: ak2000- Marketing dept for a large corporationthey can make quite a lot of moneyGeniuses' weakneses:Intransformability (i.e. have to be (or insist to be) a genius for life)Living in the closed-form worldLikes to cheat other geniuses' ideaGreedy for money acquiringHaving confidence in math, not creativity, and Many weaknesses that I cannot descrive briefly (If you want more details, I can establish another thread if you prefer.)May Devil bless you.(I assure Hu Jintao is a real genius whose IQ is more than, at least, 100.)Tunito coming from the Outer World

Tunito,Can you please explain how this relates to the trading vs. sales question?

Well, it is very difficult to say :- As a trader, you will definitely only do market related jobs. There is nearly no way for you to go back to a more traditional job (marketing, consulting, industry management). As a sales, you can go back much more easily. You have to remember that because, at the moment, the glamorous jobs seem to be in banking but it won't last forever.- Of course, in the market, a sales will only go from banks to banks whereas a trader can work in a bank, a hedge fund or a long-only fund.- Don't forget that the word trader doesn't mean anything. Most of the traders are only market makers. When you are in that position, it is the seat that is worth something, not you. So basically, if the market is less interesting, that you do less customer flow, you are just in the average. Very few have the power to take real risk, being, as we could put speculators or investors. If you end up as a market maker (for a bank, on the floor, etc), you can earn a lot of money but you will basically don't have a lot of opportunities because nobody knows what you are worth.

QuoteOriginally posted by: volareWell, it is very difficult to say :- Of course, in the market, a sales will only go from banks to banks whereas a trader can work in a bank, a hedge fund or a long-only fund.Thanks for your input Volare.Couple of remarks:At first, I was quite impressed to hear how hedge funds are now targeting sales people as well as traders. After a little thought it makes complete sense, so I guess we can add this one to your list of destinations for salespeopleQuoteDo you not feel - Don't forget that the word trader doesn't mean anything. Most of the traders are only market makers. When you are in that position, it is the seat that is worth something, not you. So basically, if the market is less interesting, that you do less customer flow, you are just in the average. Very few have the power to take real risk, being, as we could put speculators or investors. If you end up as a market maker (for a bank, on the floor, etc), you can earn a lot of money but you will basically don't have a lot of opportunities because nobody knows what you are worth.Well, once you start interviewing wouldn't people find out how good you are? Generally speaking, I am under the impression in most sales jobs you spend most of your time talking to/educating less knowledgeable clients in the hope of getting some of their business (with limited opportunities to learn yourself),whereas in trading you spend most of your time watching/trading the markets, ie. learning.

QuoteOriginally posted by: TunitoJMR,Geniuses' weakneses:Intransformability (i.e. have to be (or insist to be) a genius for life)Living in the closed-form worldLikes to cheat other geniuses' ideaGreedy for money acquiringHaving confidence in math, not creativity, and Many weaknesses that I cannot descrive briefly (If you want more details, I can establish another thread if you prefer.)May Devil bless you.It is easy to say this in times promoting mediocrity of any kind....

ak2000, can you explain explicitly why hedge funds need salespersons, to promote their portfolio? Or to raise money from the wealthy?From my point of view a sales person has a more unlimited career oppurtunities than a trader does in terms of long term prospects because a trader has a great value only in finance sector but useless in other industry, and sales persons are required in all industries.Tunito, is your comment for Hu Jintao's IQ a praise or a sarcastism?As I know, many Japanese don't like Hu Jintao.

QuoteOriginally posted by: allenishandsak2000, can you explain explicitly why hedge funds need salespersons, to promote their portfolio? Or to raise money from the wealthy?From my understading, anyone correct me if wrong, hedge fund sales people are mandated to raise money from investors, ensure a steady capital base for the traders and/or manage investor relations more in general.hope this helps

here is my 1.5 cents worth on this topic.... to preface, i spent 3 years as a fixed income salesperson and then 10y as a swaps trader, not that this makes me an authority but i do have practical experience in both rolls.... without a doubt, if you have significant experience on the risk (trading) side AND (and this is a big "and" because it is kinda rare) you have a very charasmatic and interactive personality, your options are much more vast than a marketer.... on the trading side i have been on countless client meetings with salespeople, and although the clients have a great social realtionship with the salespeson, the majortiy of the meeting usually has consisted of the client and i talking about the market on a technical trading level.... put it this way, a personable trader can easily transfer to sales, but the reverse is almost impossible....furthermore, hedge funds, who really dont care about shmoozing and are so rich they dont need to be wined and dined, would much rather speak to a trader who has technical market insight.

Interestingly enough though, one can lately observe a tendency of the big houses forming sales groups that are dedicated to hedge fund clients. Credit derivatives HF sales and Structured Products HF sales seem to be very popular groups for example. And several people that are staffing them have advanced degrees, often Ph.D. level, and considerable market experience too.I understand that the clientele is very specific, but that should indicate some direction the industry is taking.

jpapa - fanatic point which i overlooked.... over the last 5 or so years the "focus" client sector in the OTC interest rate derivs biz has been the hedge funds (despite that these are the most difficult, sneaky, and ruthless "clients" the pure size of the sector has made it the most pursuded).... and a jpapa asserts, a technical background (trader) is more of an asset now than ever.... this is not to say that the financial institutions, real money accounts, and coroprate treasurers,etc have no interest in speaking to someone with a sollid risk-based perspective, but the hedge fund community is by far the most oriented this way......