Hi there,I just graduated from a top University in Hong Kong majoring computer engineering. (Bachelor only, not master) I am now working in an investment bank. I would like to seek advice for my career path.FOR an IT graudate like me, I wonder other than quant developer, are there any role for IT peoples.Basically, I have heard too much bad things about the career path in IT, at least this is very true in HK. That's why I tried my best to work in an ibank to get a better pay, but I still have to think about my path in the long run.1. What's the difference between a quant developer and a normal developer? Is it because of the math and derivative products knowledge? You know, many ppl have said about huge supply of programmers in China and India....2. Do I have to be very strong at math in order to be a quant developer?3. I remember Dominic once said that C# and Excel are great skills, in what sense and why did he say so?4. To be frank, I dont mind changing the field from IT, but looks like Quant developer will be a good path for IT people, if you know any other paths, please let me know and I can have a thought.My background:In fact, I am interested in programming, yet I still want to have great income, so looks like quant developer would be a good future path for me, I have learnt C++ and Java in my degree. Basically I am working like as a front office trading system support + adhoc Excel VBA developer. I have to support the in-house developed (by other team, not me) trading system for my exotic equity derivative trading team, to make sure there is no problem in DB, server etc, so that they get a good intraday Delta, End of day Vega Cross gamma, etc. Meanwhile, I may have to develop adhoc excel spreadsheets using VBA to meet their ad-hoc needs. I am sitting right besides the traders though.I am planning to get a Master in Finance 2-3 years later to support my change in career path.

It is the case that most developers in a bank are not even remotely "quant".IT career paths are often not great, and I do not see that changing soon. In HK I think it is even worse since it is not as big as NY/London but with wage costs not much less.But in any IT career, a good knowledge of the business area helps a a lot, quant finance is just one way of doing it.Part of the difference is that there are no "Masters in Settlements", or in exchange connectivity, etc.So many people head in the quant drection simply for lack of a better opton. I think demand for QDs will be more stable than may types of work in banks.You do need decent maths to be a QD, and many IT grads also face the problem that the maths they have done are not the right kind.I have said that C# is reasonably useful in this line of work, more so than Java and represents a plausible trade off for those who ar not sure if their future wll be in quant work or mainstream IT.Java is of course more common than C#, but I forecast that over the next 5 years C# will pay better than Java, since the supply/demand for Java does not look as attractive if you are selling the skill.Excel is great a defence against your career going bad.Demand will be there for >10 years, and is much easier to get to a level where people will pay you money than C++, Java, SQL, etc.That's more important than you might think. This is your first recession, it will not be the last, I guess there are anywhere between 4 and 12 recessions between you and retirement.Also, all skills age and die.C++ has seen off many other languages, and C/C++ are still very strong, but everything dies.Java is showing signs of early aging, and it's quite possible that C/C++ overtakes it again in a few years.Or not...I have made bad forecasts on this stuff before, and surely wiill do again. No one on this forum is even close to me in ability to forecastwhich technologies will prosper, and even I don't know how to call it well enough to tell you what to do.You stand no chance.Even if you guess right, it will die anyway.If you look back (say) 15 years at the s/w dev skills that banks were hiring the only major survivors are C++ and SQL. Clipper, OS/2, Powerbuilder, and many others are words that I guess you don't even recogniise.I guess 80% of the buzzwords in demand then have faded to background noise.Even C++ is quite unlike the language used in the early 1990s, many people thought MFC were really cool, on the CQF I now use it as a nexample of shit class design.At 37 you may well find that Java (or C# or F# or Perl) simply do not convince anyone to hire you.It may happen quicker than that. Skills can die in a year flat, or version changes erode you away to obsolete.As a techie you have to keep gambling that the skill you learn next will have a demand, and that cycle will happen several times.

Thank you so much DCFC.Merry X'mas and wish you guys all the best!Can you elaborate a bit more on the sentence "It is the case that most developers in a bank are not even remotely "quant"."I am getting a stronger and stronger tendency to move away from IT after prolong thoughts, as well as your last sentences: QuoteAt 37 you may well find that Java (or C# or F# or Perl) simply do not convince anyone to hire you. It may happen quicker than that. Skills can die in a year flat, or version changes erode you away to obsolete. As a techie you have to keep gambling that the skill you learn next will have a demand, and that cycle will happen several times. So I am actively seeking other possible non-IT roles for IT ppl like me. Yes, you were right that Quant developer is just one way in doing so, let me ask you some questions on this.1. What's the difference between a Quant and a Quant developer in terms of the skills they need as well as the things they do?2. Is it true that quant is only for those ppl who are very "academic"? What about a people with a Degree in IT, backup with a CQF?To be honest, if you ask about my interest, I really like coding, yet I worry that my math may not be strong enough like those PHD....But I do really have some interest in developing softwares in the financial engineering domain, provided that I understand the math behind.What do you guys think about?Do you have any possible roles suggested for me in the long run?Anyway, I am glad that, at least I am sitting with the traders, though doing nothing on trading. Yet I could still learn by reading their emails, see what stocks they buy/sell each day, have a look at those exotic structured products etc. In the mean time, I am planning to read more books on Financial Engineering, and some C++ books. Overall, the only thing that I can do right now is to learn more, get some experience, then I may go for a master in finance in 3-4 year times and at that time, I may have more information for me to seek the roles for me( at least a Master of finance will certainly give me more options rather than just a bare IT degree)....and I really feel glad that I can put at least the experience of working in the front office of an iBank in my resume, someone told me that this entrance ticket is very vital, without this ticket, it's even much harder for an IT ppl to break into the finance world (even with master of fin or CFA)....Is this true DCFC?

Quotein the early 1990s, many people thought MFC were really coolIndeed. Too much inheritance. Still, it worked. These days Microsoft has done a fine job with WindowsForms.But is was MFC what put OO programming and C++ on the map. Thanks to Bill Gates. Before that is was mainly early adopters (e.g. Ericsson, research and Real-time) who used it.My own company was the only one in the Netherlands at the time that were able to support this product (and COM!).//M'F'C == Frustration

QuoteOriginally posted by: isaaccoolCan you elaborate a bit more on the sentence "It is the case that most developers in a bank are not even remotely "quant"."There are a lot of computers and jobs related to computers in a bank. The people that program the web interface to your online banking site, for example. Most of the developers in banks don't do things that are particularly algorithmic.Quote1. What's the difference between a Quant and a Quant developer in terms of the skills they need as well as the things they do?There are just job titles, and job titles don't provide much information. One thing that makes describing jobs very difficult is that banks aren't assembly lines where there is one job that just needs doing. Everyone I know has, does something different, which makes classifying jobs very difficult. Usually, when people put out a job request they are looking for someone with a specific and often obscure skill. What makes the process Kafka-like is that they usually won't tell you what the skill they are looking for is.When most people think of the job "quant" I think they are looking for a job that Derman describes in his book. The trouble with that sort of job is that those jobs are very rare, and getting rarer.Quote2. Is it true that quant is only for those ppl who are very "academic"? What about a people with a Degree in IT, backup with a CQF?People that are too academic usually don't work very well in a corporate environment. Also IT degrees tend to be useless.QuoteTo be honest, if you ask about my interest, I really like coding, yet I worry that my math may not be strong enough like those PHD....But I do really have some interest in developing softwares in the financial engineering domain, provided that I understand the math behind.People don't get Ph.D.'s because they are particularly intelligent. People get Ph.D'.s because they are persistent. The question really isn't how much math you understand, but what you do when you encounter math that you just don't understand. Give up tend to be the wrong answer. Lock yourself in a room and pester people until you do understand the stuff, tends to be the right answer.

I think the main reason that C/C++ has survived is that there is a community standards and language development process that allows the language to change to reflect where ever industry and academia thinks things should go. One thing that is fascinating to do is to read up on the standards process and the history of C++ and try to understand the design decisions and mistakes.

Can you elaborate a bit more on the sentence "It is the case that most developers in a bank are not even remotely "quant"."I shall define this as "not using post-teenage mathematics for months at a time".Thus even in investment banking businesses most S/W development is:Putting together screens to capture user inputAssembling reportsTurning data from one form into anotherWorkflow, ie "get this user to confirm this transaction should be allowed, then forward it to someone in the pool of people that do that sort of transaction".Customising stuff for customers.Writing S/W to automate packages that are nearly smart enough to do the job.Writing S/W to automate packages that are nowhere near smart enough to do the job. (yes they still use SendKeys in VBA)Webby stuff where investment banks make some attempt to make it look as if the 21st century didn't come as a serious shock last week.1. What's the difference between a Quant and a Quant developer in terms of the skills they need as well as the things they do?There is no single difference, anyone who says otherwise is naively expressing things in terms of the small subset of banking he has observed.At some firms a Quant is simply a better qualified person than a QD, typically with better maths, in other words it is a "rank" not a functional description.But a QD at some business units is often at a higer level (pay and ability) than a Q at some others. Note that the granularity I use is "business unit", not company. In some places a Q maybe a little more than an junior Excel jockey, at others you are expected to have a PhD in a hard mathematical subject and excellent C++ even to get an interview at entry level Q. A big difference is bonus pools, but again it is not a uniform separation. QDs are vastly more likely to be sucked into the IT bonus pool where they will be paid small random bonuses, that not only are lower than quants, but also bear little resemblance to what you achieve of your effort. I have had people in IT bonus pools suprised at getting more than they honestly thought their contribution deserved, it is that random. Though obviously the bias is towards lower bonues.That is why I am confident in my assertion that good QDs will remain in short supply.2. Is it true that quant is only for those ppl who are very "academic"? What about a people with a Degree in IT, backup with a CQF?That's a valid path, provided they put the effort in on the maths, one reason that there is now the extra maths programme for the CQF. (Of course I have to declare an interest here).Certainly banking experience helps, and I would counsel you to start looking at building XLLs as a way of combining your current work with stuf that will move you forward.