Hi all,I need a bit of career advice please.Quick background about me: I am now in my mid 30s. I got a PhD in a mathy/engineering field from a top 5 US institution in 2007. After that I joined a structured business of a large investment bank as a trader (been through their written tests and brainteasers etc). Been working at the same business since then. We had a few successful years. However, as the desk's business is complex, illiquid and capital intensive, banks are looking to reduce their activity. Our business has shrank in the last two years and a few people left. In addition, I got a bit bored because there is not much intellectual challenge for me lately. Having done this for 7 years, it has become a bit repetitive. So I am exploring my options.As a trader, my main responsibilities were pricing of complex derivatives on sell side and risk managing those. I haven't needed to do frequent hedging but have done a lot of risk reports and was good at staying on top my risk. But not sure if this experience will help me because this is a niche business and working in this business elsewhere is not an option for me. I also do not have much contacts in the bank that would allow me to move within the bank (not good at networking). So I am looking to start with a clean plate elsewhere. I enjoy mathematics, and statistics, having studied probability and optimization back in graduate school. Analyzing data and exploring ideas have always appealed to me. My current job as a trader has not exposed me to this kind of work (obviously I used some probability and math but a bit basic). I am now properly reviewing those topics. Within the next 6-8 months, I am planning to review probability, statistics, derivative pricing and learn coding in Python or R. Review will include solving exercises in the books. I am aspiring to join a quant hedge fund (as a quant researcher? or a quant trader?) but I wanted to see if I am dreaming here... Would I be dismissed for reasons of being too old to start without work experience in these fields? What other career options could be available for me where (1) I get to work on interesting quantitative projects, (2) be relevant to the bottom line of the business so I can make money? To increase my chances, would it be advisable to go back to school and get a masters in statistics? I am not interested in developer type jobs as my strength is more in math then coding. (Yes my math skills did get rusty in my current job but I am now studying and will get sharp in 6-8 months).Appreciate any advice you may have. Thank you.

So, what you are saying is that a mathy/engineering PhD from a top 5 US institution along with 7 years of front office experience as a trader in a large investment bank is basically useless, and you are considering going back to do a masters in statistics and starting all over again??? The young people of this forum are not amused, I am pretty sure.

Hi. Thanks for your post. I am not useless. However I am not an associate anymore (after 7 years experience), which makes me expensive and hence the concern about getting a job in a different asset class without experience. I am pretty sure I could take a risk job or model validation job. However I am exploring to see if I can work in a more mainstream asset class (like equities), where quantitative skills are used more so I don't lose my skills and I would be relevant to the bottom-line... Thank you.

QuoteOriginally posted by: lonestar5Hi. Thanks for your post. I am not useless. However I am not an associate anymore (after 7 years experience), which makes me expensive and hence the concern about getting a job in a different asset class without experience. I am pretty sure I could take a risk job or model validation job. However I am exploring to see if I can work in a more mainstream asset class (like equities), where quantitative skills are used more so I don't lose my skills and I would be relevant to the bottom-line... Thank you.Sorry - I didn't mean to say that you were useless. I was just expressing surprise (and a bit of disappointment on behalf of the many around here who think they aspire to be in your shoes) that you don't feel you can directly leverage your existing experience and/or education in trying to move your career along. You are sure you don't have any connections in your current shop that could help you in a lateral move toward another asset class?

How are your programming skills? What school did you go to? I'm in the process of starting a fund that will launch in May/April. Fund founders are from Renaissance Technologies and Credit Suisse with 25 years of experience each. We've already hired a developer but looking for another. Your lack of optimization skills do not concern me. Your educational and trading background does interests me. Please see my ad on Bloomberg for a quantitative developer and contact me there.

Maybe I don't understand what "structured business of a large investment bank" entails and the following rant hinges on that, but I can't see what's so special about a clean plate and joining as a junior researcher?If I'm reading your professional experience correctly then I fail to see why you wouldn't want to leverage your background to get into a high yield/structured credit hedge fund. Every shop I hear about wants to go multi strat and add a credit business. You could try to get into the multitude of funds engaged in this hunt for yield everywhere.Reading into your post a little I feel there is a desire to be a quant just for quant's sake. An end in itself rather than a means to an end. These are just support endeavors and not the big picture, unless you happen to end up at a place like twoSigma. I think you may be in a bit of a sell side bubble. Jump around on LinkedIn a little, touch base with recruiters specializing on the buy side. This stuff about a MS. is a bit preposterous honestly.

QuoteOriginally posted by: slackerReading into your post a little I feel there is a desire to be a quant just for quant's sake. An end in itself rather than a means to an end. These are just support endeavors and not the big picture, unless you happen to end up at a place like twoSigma. I think you may be in a bit of a sell side bubble. Jump around on LinkedIn a little, touch base with recruiters specializing on the buy side. This stuff about a MS. is a bit preposterous honestly.My thoughts exactly. I haven't got the patience to read the OP's whole post, but I don't really see any of the issues some others have on this forum eg people that did MFE, couldn't get the job they wanted and wound up in some arbitrary role that doesn't suit them and where there is no maths involved, in these cases I could understand, maybe, talk of an MSc to reboot but even then surely there are better ways. For me it's more a case of lateral change which a recruiter, even a useless gimp one, could do. Although I'd prefer if they talked to someone like DCFC.To the OP - I think there's a bit of confidence issue here - you have to have the confidence to say to yourself "I can do this job with a little adjustment". I suspect the real trick will be getting into the mindset of a new role - even if it's vastly different from what you do now you could easily sell that being a professional with experience you'll adjust quicker than a graduate. The bit of confidence in front of employers will come naturally if you deal with these issues and honestly there's no need for an MSc, just some bridging skills and putting your reading list on the CV.From experience, I'd hold on to what you've got FOR NOW and perservere. This sounds like something that could evolve over time in terms of what you look for, as market knowledge takes time to gather - if you're unsure about your current area it is best to explore. But be patient with networking - most people that start networking have a network where only 5-10% of the people they meet have a clue but even just going to conferences and events and swapping business cards after a meaningful chat can help (adding on LinkedIn won't get you anywhere near as far as a brief chat). And once you tough it out you might find yourself in a situation where 90-95% of who you meet are clued in.

slacked, liam - thanks for your responses. Thanks for putting the time to type it up. You are absolutely right about the confidence issue. I am used to seeing my quantitative skills as my main offer when it comes to getting a job. The reality of losing those skills (i.e getting rusty) got me really worried. Right now I am at a stage where I should be buying a house and starting a family. However I feel quite insecure about my ability to pay down a mortgage when I am not confident I have the skills to get the next job (in a scenario where I lose the current one, which is quite a possible scenario). Obviously I have saved up a material amount over the years but will need a bit of leverage nonetheless.I agree with you, I would most likely not leave the current job until I am let go. However, I wanted to be proactive and start exploring just so I get more colour about how easy it will be to find the next job, what kind of job/pay I can expect on the next job etc. Otherwise I won't be able to take financial risks with my life (house, family)...

Have bonuses become so bad that you would prefer to quit a front-office job with still potential upside and go back to school? The buy-side is not as rosy as it seems these days with increasing regulatory focus and increased costs associated to it. Most small shops days are numbered and big shops are cut-throat places, looking for outstanding outperformers and are ready to let go of anyone not performing within 6 months. And no offence, but your experience has been mostly on the exotic flow side which means prop trading and trade idea generation is not your forte. However, if your current position is such that you think you might get axed, moving to risk is not a bad option. I made the move from derivatives trading to risk myself and i'm happy to discuss it with you in private if you are interested.

QuoteOriginally posted by: lonestar5slacked, liam - thanks for your responses. Thanks for putting the time to type it up. You are absolutely right about the confidence issue. I am used to seeing my quantitative skills as my main offer when it comes to getting a job. The reality of losing those skills (i.e getting rusty) got me really worried. Right now I am at a stage where I should be buying a house and starting a family. However I feel quite insecure about my ability to pay down a mortgage when I am not confident I have the skills to get the next job (in a scenario where I lose the current one, which is quite a possible scenario). Obviously I have saved up a material amount over the years but will need a bit of leverage nonetheless.I agree with you, I would most likely not leave the current job until I am let go. However, I wanted to be proactive and start exploring just so I get more colour about how easy it will be to find the next job, what kind of job/pay I can expect on the next job etc. Otherwise I won't be able to take financial risks with my life (house, family)...How old are you? There is a world outside of finance.

QuoteOriginally posted by: lonestar5slacked, liam - thanks for your responses. Thanks for putting the time to type it up. You are absolutely right about the confidence issue. I am used to seeing my quantitative skills as my main offer when it comes to getting a job. The reality of losing those skills (i.e getting rusty) got me really worried. Right now I am at a stage where I should be buying a house and starting a family. However I feel quite insecure about my ability to pay down a mortgage when I am not confident I have the skills to get the next job (in a scenario where I lose the current one, which is quite a possible scenario). Obviously I have saved up a material amount over the years but will need a bit of leverage nonetheless.I agree with you, I would most likely not leave the current job until I am let go. However, I wanted to be proactive and start exploring just so I get more colour about how easy it will be to find the next job, what kind of job/pay I can expect on the next job etc. Otherwise I won't be able to take financial risks with my life (house, family)...Tbh, FO finance is not really the best place to be taking these risks. Exceptions for me would be people I know that work in corporate or project finance, where being axed is a less cutthroat process than for traders. I mean I've come across traders that never had a mortgage until they left to become teachers in their 40s. Maybe I'm being generalising but your comments didn't surprise me one iota as I've seen people in your situation, more or less, before.Reality and problen isn't so much about it being cutthroat but that your technical skills are neglected a lot more than in MO (my experience anyway, it's more about quick and dirty) and the drivers for these jobs are more about ridiculous attention to detail and just getting good profit margins and generally a lot of niche skills. Something to think about when trying to transfer skills around.As Cuchulainn I think alludes to there are options outside finance eg IT, statistics. Even in something like maths teaching you might find you won't need to go back to school to train if you go to the right employer. Again I'd say be patient with networking and realise such switches can take time.

I'd recommend going the developer route. Your front desk experience would be highly valuable for many companies, there are way too many situations where developers don't know and don't care about the business side and the business side doesn't know (enough) coding.If you decide for IT, leave Python and R aside and pick a real programming language, one that scales up to enterprise level (rolling billions of transactions). C++ is dead as should be, C# is platform-specific therefore you only got one option: Java. Dunno what your coding level is right now but you should aim for implementing a full blown trading system by yourself: backend and frontend, all with marketdata, order sending, position & pnl/risk tracking and only then the really interesting stuff: the trading engine.

QuoteOriginally posted by: mbuneaI'd recommend going the developer route. Your front desk experience would be highly valuable for many companies, there are way too many situations where developers don't know and don't care about the business side and the business side doesn't know (enough) coding.If you decide for IT, leave Python and R aside and pick a real programming language, one that scales up to enterprise level (rolling billions of transactions). C++ is dead as should be, C# is platform-specific therefore you only got one option: Java. Dunno what your coding level is right now but you should aim for implementing a full blown trading system by yourself: backend and frontend, all with marketdata, order sending, position & pnl/risk tracking and only then the really interesting stuff: the trading engine.I will leave to others to flame you for your views on technology, but given OP's statement "I am not interested in developer type jobs as my strength is more in math then coding" I don't think the advice to go off and learn how to code enterprise systems in Java is all that helpful.