Hello:I'm in the early process of looking for my first quant position for a bank or hedge fund. I suppose one could say it would be my first and a half position; I've been doing operations research (microecon and optimization) for the last few years, after a Ph.D. in physics. Since it's easy money for the recruiters to place someone relatively entry level like me in a C++ cube farm, several of the ones I have spoken to have tried to talk me into how great it would be to do that. I'm having none of it. I even explicitly avoided mention of the word (as well as the "J" word) in my CV. I'd happily develop someone else's ideas into code in Lisp, Matlab, R or Python. The last time I picked up a Scott Meyers book, I had to light it on fire to avoid an aneurism. I didn't torment myself with over a decade of higher education to deal with page faults in some bozo's GUI, or writing Yet Another Regression Model in C++. My questions: 1) If I don't want to be a glorified C++ code monkey, but I do want to get my foot in the door, well, what would you all recommend? 2) In the larger scheme of things, is it impossible to completely avoid this scourge on all right thinking people? I can see myself tormenting C++ in a debugger and test harness, or fixing stupid C++ models for the front desk on the fly, but I'd rather work with languages which don't give me the creeps. 3) If I hypothetically ended up accepting a C++ quant developer position, can I bring home the bacon on it, or is this a "ghetto" position I'll be trapped in for the rest of my puff?I have never won the "putnam prize" or any other such highfallutin' nonsense that fantasist recruiters put on their adverts, but I do have a solid background in writing sophisticated code to model all kinds of neat things, and I have a Ph.D. from a good school. I figure that has to be worth something. My code makes my present employer and his investors a pretty substantial chunk of change, and there isn't a single line of C++ in it.Thanks for any replies,-Lugos

QuoteOriginally posted by: lugos Hello:I'm in the early process of looking for my first quant position for a bank or hedge fund. I suppose one could say it would be my first and a half position; I've been doing operations research (microecon and optimization) for the last few years, after a Ph.D. in physics. Since it's easy money for the recruiters to place someone relatively entry level like me in a C++ cube farm, several of the ones I have spoken to have tried to talk me into how great it would be to do that. I'm having none of it. I even explicitly avoided mention of the word (as well as the "J" word) in my CV. I'd happily develop someone else's ideas into code in Lisp, Matlab, R or Python. The last time I picked up a Scott Meyers book, I had to light it on fire to avoid an aneurism. I didn't torment myself with over a decade of higher education to deal with page faults in some bozo's GUI, or writing Yet Another Regression Model in C++. My questions: 1) If I don't want to be a glorified C++ code monkey, but I do want to get my foot in the door, well, what would you all recommend? 2) In the larger scheme of things, is it impossible to completely avoid this scourge on all right thinking people? I can see myself tormenting C++ in a debugger and test harness, or fixing stupid C++ models for the front desk on the fly, but I'd rather work with languages which don't give me the creeps. 3) If I hypothetically ended up accepting a C++ quant developer position, can I bring home the bacon on it, or is this a "ghetto" position I'll be trapped in for the rest of my puff?I have never won the "putnam prize" or any other such highfallutin' nonsense that fantasist recruiters put on their adverts, but I do have a solid background in writing sophisticated code to model all kinds of neat things, and I have a Ph.D. from a good school. I figure that has to be worth something. My code makes my present employer and his investors a pretty substantial chunk of change, and there isn't a single line of C++ in it.Thanks for any replies,-LugosYour clarity of vision is refreshing.If I were you, I'd get some sort of trading job and work hard at it for a while. What happens is that you start to get opinions about how this should work (trading, that is). Next, you start to realize how your coding skills will help you execute your trading schemes. Now you're in a position to be able to do some damage.Good luck. Keep your attitude! It will save your ass from years of wasted time.

frankly, you just managed to convince lots of employers they don't want you. There are plenty of quant analyst groups that require C++ without turning you into a developer.

QuoteOriginally posted by: mjfrankly, you just managed to convince lots of employers they don't want you. There are plenty of quant analyst groups that require C++ without turning you into a developer.if "lots" doesn't mean "all", then it should be fine ...

QuoteOriginally posted by: mjfrankly, you just managed to convince lots of employers they don't want you.I suspect it's mutual so he doesn't care

I'm not sure [based on observations] if accepting a job with alot of programming, if in a good company where you can still learn alot, is a good strategy or not. There seem to be fewer and fewer quant jobs anywhere and fewer that don't involve substantial programming. Sometimes the senior quant leave and an opening allows you to move up the food chain. However like most jobs, you generally have to change companies [unless it is a big bank with many separated divisions] to get more money or a better position---the old 'prophet not without honor except in his own country [company].' An very successful accountant one said "Make all the mistakes [i.e. try your hand at everything and try to learn about everything] in your first job. Then in your next job you will look like a 'god'" [i.e. have learned alot that more cautious people never got involved with].

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperQuoteOriginally posted by: mjfrankly, you just managed to convince lots of employers they don't want you.I suspect it's mutual so he doesn't careRight; I'm not looking for a job here either. I'm trying to calibrate how much I should care. I.e. if sitting in the C++ cube farm is really my only option (as opposed to sitting in an R, SAS or Python cube farm, which as I said, is pretty OK by me: I like programming in other languages well enough), I need to recalibrate. Doing some C++, I suppose, is acceptable, though not optimal; it's the "all C++, all day, dealing with things which are vaguely numeric and financial in nature," aspect of things which really looks painful. If that's all quantitative finance is going to be, I'd rather do something else. Why should I bother with my stochastic diff eq's if I am going to think about pointer math all day?

As we say in the guide, pretty much all quants do programming so everyone is a quant developer, the variable is the ratio.MJ has a point that if you're too loud about your hatred of coding most employers will give up the idea of hiring you immediately.Also don't slag Scott, we've drunk together a few times, and he doesn't do hard C++ merely to torment newbies. Honest.There is quant work in R and Matlab, but if you see Python, odds are that it's a pretend quant job. You said Lisp to try and impress me. You failed.Yes, some HHs do push developer jobs by pretending they are quants. If you're going to deal with that woman that then frankly it's your problem not mine.You're at least in your mid-20s, and allegedly smart, you're going to have to deal with people trying to get you to do things that suit them more than you.QD jobs can be ghettoes, they can be doors. There's lots of things to look at to work that out. A good metric is the ratio of questions since that approximates very roughly (but also quite honestly) to the sort of work you do.Another is pay. QDs don't get as much as Q's who do a bit of D, but Qs who do no D often barley get paid at all. I guess you've done enough maths to work out the existence of at least one maximum in that.You've got to find a pimp who you can trust to a) tell you the truth b) have enough idea of what's going on that they know what the truth is.As for it being "easy money", not quite true. She will simply put you where she can, and is utterly indifferent to where you go. In as much as there is any sensitivity to desitantion it's for the quant roles youdesire since the commission is a higher % of a bigger number is she put you in as a quant. You didn't know that did you ? Also, as I say, you're a big boy now, ask the interviewer what the ratio of coding is. Get the reporting structure, even as a newbie it shouldn't be too hard to work out that if you're in the IT department even with a "quant" job title, knowledge of golf is more useful than PDEs.

In my experience, about 1 out of 5 quant jobs don't require C++ programming.

QuoteOriginally posted by: DCFCAs we say in the guide, pretty much all quants do programming so everyone is a quant developer, the variable is the ratio.MJ has a point that if you're too loud about your hatred of coding most employers will give up the idea of hiring you immediately.Also don't slag Scott, we've drunk together a few times, and he doesn't do hard C++ merely to torment newbies. Honest.There is quant work in R and Matlab, but if you see Python, odds are that it's a pretend quant job. You said Lisp to try and impress me. You failed.You are mistaken on the lisp thing: I presently write (bad) Lisp, and even get paid for it. One of the authors of CLISP even seems to manage to use Lisp in his day job as a quant. My exposure to programming languages like Lisp and Python (R and Matlab are OK too; more practical and less glorious, but quite OK) are the reason why I can no longer abide wasting my life writing haikus in C++. Meyers book is just fine; clever even: it's the subject matter I find offensive. When we finally assemble the crowd of peasants with torches and pitchforks, it will be outside of Bjarne Stroustrup's house: Meyers was just a collaborator.You're right: I've never seen a Python listing for much of anything financial. I doubt that will remain true; the scipy development team's task list includes all manner of things which will be useful in quantland <tm>. High level programming languages are The Future. C++ is COBOL.Incidentally, thank you very much for your file/booklet on working with HH's; it is very helpful indeed.-Lugos

QuoteOriginally posted by: spiceIn my experience, about 1 out of 5 quant jobs don't require C++ programming.And the other four jobs do require C++?

Lugos,My suggestion to you would be to forget C++ if it having such an effect on you. Do something you really like to do. Life is too short.The fact that C++ is king will remain for years to come. There are basically too many C++ apps out there that are keeping industry and business rolling along. Fortran is super language and is from the 60's.I had a similar experience as you when I learned Java in 1996. Did not like it and did something else. On the other hand, the Java business was very lucrative in those days. C++, you either love it or hate it. For me, as a numerical analist it is a tool for building applications, just as in the pre-IT days engineers build technical applications in Fortran. I would have no problem switching back to it because the choice of language is not important; design is what counrts.As a Wilmotter said, 60% of typical quant work is C++ development. It becomes nice when you can develop your own models.Quoteit's the "all C++, all day, dealing with things which are vaguely numeric and financial in nature," aspect of things which really looks painful.yes, it's not seamless always, I grant you that. What do you think of Fortran?That's my 2 cents.

I think that the experience of the more senior people in this forum is C++ biased. My years of scientific-based C++ experience have been of almost little importance in my job search so far (thank God - since I share similar feelings towards programming), but then again, I'm not really interested in sell-side sort of financial instrument pricing. But even with regards to the one sell-side IB job I interviewed for, the strategists all used a proprietary scripting language.

QuoteAnd the other four jobs do require C++?Yes, that's my interview experience.

Lugos, one senior quant I know wrote his own language and the compiler to go with it. Another got so into XLLS that he's joined us on the Excel technical test team.One MD level quant used to rip apart PCs for PC Magazine to see how they went, more than one used to be a fighter pilot.That doesn't make any ofthe above skills useful.Although I can believe that 20% of jobs don't require C++, I'd bet money that quite a proportion of the rump 20% either ask questions about it at interview, or like to see it on a CV.Goldmans famoulsy don't use as much C++ as most other firms, but like to see an OO language and experience of numerical programming. That isn't C++ precisely, and to be 100% honest I can'tsay with total confidence that if you turned up with Smalltalk experience that they'd laugh.Yes C++ can be a brutally difficult language, I've been fighting C & C++ probalby since befre you were born, and have the scars both physical and emotional.But that cuts 2 ways.We drone on a bit in the guide about showing that you are smart. There are a lot of poeple with PhDs, many from good places, and do not forget that these days that include every developed country on the planet.One person we dealt with recently didn't really come from a country at all.C++ is a "macho" skill. If you can deal with template specialisation, const ref's and IEEE representation than very few things in computers will ever scare you.It's showing off.Also I have data that you, and most others on the forums don't.You only have data about why you got an interview, and rarely are you told "we want you because you're damned good at mental arithmetic".I get to hear why people don't get the job, or why they don't get the interview in the first place.Given that most people don't get most of the jobs that they go for, that's rather critical, so when I say that you've got to kiss and make up with Bjarne, you should buy me a beer for the free advice.