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I have recently been offered an IT role in Tokyo, thing is.. I cant really tell if it is a front office IT role or quant developer role. What is the difference between these 2 roles? They claimed they do development work for trading and work closely with the quants team. Does that qualify as a quant developer?

IT is never front office.

I suspect the reason for your justified concern is that there is a defect in the current market that good quant developers are in terribly short supply, but that the salary structures in many firms don't allow them to pay the market rate. Thus you get the bizarre situation that a hugely competent QD earns far less than a mediocre quant doing pretty exactly the same work, sitting next to each other.Of course you don't get it for all that long...Forward me the emails where they said this. OK, I am a pimp so feel free to remove your name, their names etc.The key is their use of language, and that requires to see the original text.I can be PM'ed or emailed at the usual places.But taking your text as the source..."development for trading" is the most worrying term.A huge amount of data pumping goes on in banks, ie turning data in format A to B. It's not all that much fun, doesn't teach you much and is poorly rewarded.But does need to be done right, hence managers try hard (perhaps too hard...) to find developers to do this crap.There are a few telling signs.First of course were the questions at interview. What % were math & finance ?Were they tough maths ?Did they ask QD questions ?Who interviewed you ? If you're not interviewed by at least some quants, odds are against it being a QD role.Where will you be sitting ?Sounds silly every time I write that, but is an objective fact with surprisingly good predictive power.Did they ask about VBA skills ?In the right context, it's a decent predictor, since IT departments do relatively little, but front office is pathetically dependant upon it.

It is as I said.. a very vague role.. but I'll try to give as good a description as I can....First rounds were by head of IT. Standard finance qns like greeks, calculus and simple probability and of coz Java/C++2nd round was by head of trading. Not much finance qns. More about personality qns type3rd round was by head of quants. Again not much finance qns.Typical duties are :Overnight batches troubleshooting(DEFINITELY an IT role)Running risk reports, employing tools like PCA etc.Development of algorithmic trading application.Implementing new models developed by quants into trading applications.Ok, so the 1st duty is definitely an IT role, but the interviewer assured me that that will only take 2~3 hours a day in the morning. The afternoons are typically spent on the development projects. So does the role sound like a quant developer? Or is it just a typical IT job?

How much are quant skills part of your skill set ?It's still hard to call, but my confidence that this is a QD role has gone up, though not as much if they asked you hard maths.My view is driven by the way you were interviewed by heads of trading and quant.The implied politics of this are that they are paying for you, hence the "personality" interviews.That is the most clear evidence that you are working relatively closely with these groups.25% of your time doing chores doesn't sound too awful.Did they ask about your SQL skills ?The reason for that question is that if they are very keen on your SQL, the possibility of doing dull ITish DB work goes up.

QuoteOriginally posted by: IRPPCI have recently been offered an IT role in Tokyo, thing is.. I cant really tell if it is a front office IT role or quant developer role. What is the difference between these 2 roles? They claimed they do development work for trading and work closely with the quants team. Does that qualify as a quant developer?There is no difference. The difference is in the headcount of the group you fall under. Maybe you should just ask them directly whether you belong to IT or the quant group.

Enough lies about "Quant Developer" from the banks and the HHs. It is just an IT developer role developing some wrappers and tools on top of the models delivered by the quants. IT developers do projects for front office, middle office or back office. A "Quant Developer" == an IT developer working for front office, but still, belongs to IT. If you badly need a job, you can take it. If your math skills are really great, maybe you can try to hold the offer and wait for other opportunities.I worked as a "Quant Developer" for several months before I moved to a real quant role in another bank. Frankly, there were just too many lies and tricks.

QuoteOriginally posted by: StephenLiEnough lies about "Quant Developer" from the banks and the HHs. It is just an IT developer role developing some wrappers and tools on top of the models delivered by the quants. IT developers do projects for front office, middle office or back office. A "Quant Developer" == an IT developer working for front office, but still, belongs to IT. If you badly need a job, you can take it. If your math skills are really great, maybe you can try to hold the offer and wait for other opportunities.I worked as a "Quant Developer" for several months before I moved to a real quant role in another bank. Frankly, there were just too many lies and tricks.I agree. The word "quant" (in front of "Developer") is very misleading.

Certainly I agree 100% about the deceit used by banks with quant developers. They are aided and abetted by some HHs as well.Hence my questions that might help IRPPC avoid a pothole.

Ok, so am I right in saying there is NO such thing as a quant developer?It is basically an IT job at the end of the day?

From what I see, the vast majority of people who have the job title of "quant developer" are in IT headcount and bonus pool.Some get better bonuses if they are "in" front office, but that varies a lot.Given that you have doubts, you need to be asking specific questions about your bonus.

Apologies for my bluntness. ts worth noting that there is sometimes a tension and equilibrium effect that goes something like this:1. Business have no faith in IT because their delivery record sucks2. Desk hires a coder Joe but call him/her a quant-dev, analyst or other3. Coder writes useful quant-ish stuff, possibly simple models in Excel, some data munging, no Java4. IT management feel concerned/insecure that business rely on Joe'sSpreadsheet and propose to replave it with a buzzword compliant J2EE application. Hire team of seven whop build the app over two years, lobby the business hard for them to move to the new app (lets call it FatJoe). 5. Joe gets a job at a hedge fund6. Business changes faster than the IT team can develop so there is a gap between FatJoe an dthe desks needs.7. IT management conclude the FatJoe team is weak so they hire a new alpha team to create BetterJoe, the FatJoe teamis relegated to maintentance, the good coders leave.8. Desk hires Joe2 to create tools/model

Pbooth has enumerated the life cycle with considerable eloquence.There are of course a few underlying dynamics. The most important is why IT doesn't deliver.IT doesn't deliver because the people in it have poor incentives, and often they are at 180 degree variance.When I was head of IT at a midsize firm I spent some time on the trading desks actually doing IT to them.Often this was bits of Excel, because I could drop in and something useful quite quickly. The value to the business wasn't another Excel jockey,but that the way it allowed me to try and work out what they really needed, not the formal specifications and other bullshit. It was also good PR.I went for jobs at bigger banks and at one interview explained this, and how it made for good relations between traders and IT. They laughed.I don't mean they smiled, they laughed, and caught themselves doing it, leaving a rather uncomfortable silence.This household name bank thought senior IT management should never ever actually touch a computer, except maybe to run Outlook.I should read a report about what they wanted.The fault was mine of course for not pitching myself to the "customer" requirements.But that's the way IT is expected to work.Imagine I was a generic IT guy, who happened to be damned good at Excel.Whilst doing something on the trading floor, I hear swearing and wander over to a profitable trading unit whose spreadsheets have gone tits up.My annual salary is being lost every 30 minutes, or 1 minute given what Excel guys usually earn.I spend a couple of hours holding that system together by force of will and a dodgy technique I learned on a topless beach in Nice (yes, I have one of those)I won't get any extra bonus for that.Not only that, I will be afraid it will get back to my boss who will bollock me for "lack of focus", and given that my fix can't hope to be 100% even if it savesa shedload of money I've "embarrassed him to the business". IE my small bonus is going to be smaller this year.IT bonuses have only the vaguest correlation with the contribution of an individual to the bottom line.If you are one of those who believe that bonuses are a way of encouraging "good" behaviour by staff, whydo you think a small random number has any useful effect on IT. It's random in both directions, I've had people tell me that theyare quite genuinely mystified why their bonus is so high. This is of course very very rare.Thus in pbooth's story, that is why Joe 1 left.He did good work got fuck all cash, and went to a hedge fund who he hoped might appreciate him,

Alright.I have confirmed that it is an IT role after asking the recruiter more questions.I will be under IT headcount, and yes that probably means IT bonus as well.Thing is, will this be considered a good step towards quant?As my nick suggests, I am currently in product control in one of the bulge bracket in tokyo.I dun have a MSc or phd yet, but I plan to do one in a couple of years time and then apply to a quant job.

I am worried now, having read Dom's blog! I am midway through interviews for a large US bank, and thought up until now, i was applying for a quant position. I like computing, and am happy to spend 60% of my time coding up models/ developing more senior quants models, however the idea of just being an IT guy is not appealing. Dom - are you saying the best way to find out is to ask "when it comes to bonuses do i come under the IT department pool"? Does this not sound "odd" at interview?