Hey guys, I guess this'll be my first post on these forums. I've been lurking for a couple weeks and finally decided to sign up, and look forward to being here a long time. This will probably be a long post, so I apologize in advance and thank you for taking the time to read it. Anyway, I need a bit of advice tailored to me, since I haven't found much of what I'm looking for. I would like to be a quant, and I realize I have a long path ahead of me but the problem I have is that the path isn't clearly marked. Basically, I'm 21 years old right now, and currently fixing a few mistakes I made in my earlier college years. I'm at a community college working towards a transfer to a university to get a CS degree. I went down this path because I dabbled with programming in the past and really enjoy it, and had a desire to do some work in AI. I changed from my major in accounting because while I enjoy numbers, I wanted to work more with the market. I didn't see a whole lot of opportunity at the time so I opted for the CS degree. A few months ago I learned about the quant position, and it seems right up my alley. I've decided that that's the path I plan to take and I'll do whatever it takes to get there. I've made up my mind, but now what? Is the degree in CS a good undergrad degree for quants? I've read that a few quants have started off with a CS degree. From there I'm not too sure if I'll want to go for a masters or a PhD, but I do know that where I'll end up is Chicago. They apparently have a good masters program for financial engineering. So I guess to make more sense of this I'll just list a few of the questions I haven't found answers to1. In the near future do you think a MFE will be sufficient to landing a decent quant job? The UofC MFE program only lasts a year, it just seems like I wouldn't have enough learning with just that and a CS degree, since I don't want to be pigeonholed into a developer job. 2. Should I start self educating? It's been a long time since I had any intensive maths (Calculus-highschool), and I've really been itching to dive back in. I still have a few prereqs I have to take before I really can focus on degree/math specific courses. I've been buying up books left and right, learning as much as I can about the market, derivatives, etc. 3. Lastly, is it a bad thing that while I generally understand what a quant is, NONE of the concepts or ideas make any sense at all to me. Again, I apologize for such a lengthy first post, hopefully I didn't break any rules or repeat a topic (I went back quite a few pages). Any help you guys can give is much appreciated!

CS is typically a dreadful degree for quants, maybe not the worst, but at least psychology has prettier women.None of them will teach you C++, some regard programming as too difficult for the poor little dears, and thus you don't get operating system internals and much open source is a mystery that only grown ups can penetrate.The majority don't do Lisp or Prolog either. The majority of courses treat the squalid subset of MySQL they teach as divine wisdom.Information theory if taught at all often stops short of Shannon. That's quite a trick, we did Shannon in the first week.In a CS degree you won't do much maths of any kind, but the little you do is of no relevance to anything and certainly not quant finance.Go do a maths course, if your maths ain't that good go somewhere you can learn C++

Hmm that's interesting. If not a CS degree, then I'm not sure what I would get? I'm not sure I read your post correctly but from what I gathered CS is garbage and doesn't teach you much in the way of anything? Most of the CS courses I've seen are programming heavy (C++ especially) and strong focus on algorithms. And at University of Louisville, they put CS in with Computer Engineering and call it CECS, which gives both sides, the CE side is more hardware oriented. I guess what I'm asking is what undergrad degrees are best for quants? I liked the CS idea because it gives me a safety, I can always be a programmer if something goes wrong with the quant side of things for me, and I enjoy programming. But if it's not a relevant degree then I definitely will go for something else. Edit: Just reread your post again, are we talking about the same Computer Sciences? Or are you talking about Computer Information Systems, which is a shitty degree and seems to be exactly what you described. Here's a link to an outline of CECS: http://louisville.edu/speed/cecs/new_we ... ndex.shtml

Celi dude..boy you're confused!I will post a thread address that will help you, but first a few pointers:A) CS is not complete garbage; however, as Dominic told you; is not the best background...too little math in some programs, particularly in those programs coming from business schools (CS programs under Math or Engineering Dept. are much more quantitative)...See? If you want to become a QUANT, you must have a QUANTitative background (specially at the graduate level, which happens to be very, very difficult NOT impossible but very, very difficult to get at graduate school without proper undegrad training).B) I am not sure how you decided to become a quant, since from your exposition, I read between lines that you are not even sure of your undergrad schooling (you changed from Accounting for a more marketable job???) ; See??, listen here...one majors in something because you are good at it and love to do it as a way of life...of course, there are jobs that are eliminated by technology changes, etc . but your first consideration MUST be "I WANT TO DO THIS"...I HAVE CERTAIN ABILITIES (people tends to like what they do well),,see how's the thing?There always be many lawyers, accountants, etc. etc BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A VERY FEW OUTSTANDING LAYERS & ACCOUNTANTS!!! get it?Now check the thread

Ok man you're making a lot of assumptions here that aren't really true. My first choice in major was accounting, because I enjoy working with numbers, and at the time I figured I'd make good money as an accountant. After a while I realized it was more important to do what I enjoy instead of what's going to make the big money, so I switched to CS because I programmed before and enjoyed it, and felt like I'd get some decent math with that. From what I've been exposed to I really enjoy finance (part of the reason I picked Acct in the first place), but chose to go with CS instead. It's about that time that I learned of the quant position, and through every bit of research I like the sound of it more and more each day. I don't give a shit what I'll make, I'd be happy with 60k a year. It's kind of funny you should mention how one chooses a career, considering when I first learned about the quant position I got extremely excited and damn near salivating. I've been buying books left and right, doing my own self education, in fact I'm probably going to be teaching MYSELF calculus before I even get to a calculus class. Because honestly, I don't have any math classes this semester, and I just can't wait. I've always exceeded in math and it was always my favorite subject. I made this thread asking for advice about my future and the best path to take to become a quant, I don't see where you got the idea that I'm a confused undergrad who doesn't really care that much about becoming a quant, as if I spun a wheel and that's the career I landed on.

To go straight to answering your three questions:1) With the UoC MFE, a CS undergraduate (that includes C++) and decent maths and an interest in finance, you will definately have enough background to get a job in finance that seems to match what you want (ie not just a developer role). You quite possibly won't be in the top quant team in the bank (that generally requires a PhD), but it would be quantitative enough to make you happy.2) From reading your later posts, you seem to have already worked out the answer to this - yes, self-education (and any experience you can get) is crucial. Very few people in finance would say that they learned most of what they know about finance in their lectures.3) This is a hard one - some people generally don't have any aptitude for combining the finance and the maths, and if this describes you, it would be a problem. On the other hand, a lot of the finance theory takes a bit of getting used to, and you'll often have to hear it a few times and a few different ways before you properly understand it - that is normal.

ok Celi dude:The thread is : A proposed BSFE (Bachelor in Science in Financial Engineering). There are many others as well in here. Considered yourself warned.M

QuoteOriginally posted by: gjlipmanTo go straight to answering your three questions:1) With the UoC MFE, a CS undergraduate (that includes C++) and decent maths and an interest in finance, you will definately have enough background to get a job in finance that seems to match what you want (ie not just a developer role). You quite possibly won't be in the top quant team in the bank (that generally requires a PhD), but it would be quantitative enough to make you happy.2) From reading your later posts, you seem to have already worked out the answer to this - yes, self-education (and any experience you can get) is crucial. Very few people in finance would say that they learned most of what they know about finance in their lectures.3) This is a hard one - some people generally don't have any aptitude for combining the finance and the maths, and if this describes you, it would be a problem. On the other hand, a lot of the finance theory takes a bit of getting used to, and you'll often have to hear it a few times and a few different ways before you properly understand it - that is normal.Thankyou for the advice I just got "Quantitative Methods for Investment Analysis", and it is pretty daunting but I'm enjoy the challenge of crawling through and trying to understand the concepts. Doing this mostly to make sure that this is truly what I want, and so far I'm loving it. I can't wait to crack the book whenever I get a chance and while it's tough, it's a lot of fun for me. Maelo, did I happen to ruffle your feathers a bit?

Ok first off, with a UofC MFE you will most likely get a very good quant finance job. But without prior work experience you will most likely be a junior quant of some sort which is quite obvious. Also I would recommend that you look for programs with internships in them, because then the career services office will def. help you to get your foot in the door. I'm not sure if the UofC program has this or not, but NYU, CMU, Berkeley and Columbia def. have these. NYU, CMU and Berkeley are typically considered to be the top programs. And you can go directly to these programs once you have completed your undergrad, but you would need to have a pretty high gpa, so the best thing you can do right now is just focus on your undergrad. You would also need good recommendations from professors so you need to take care of that. So you can see why should just try to get a 4.0 and not worry about quant finance right now. A good way to get reccommendations would be to do research with those professors. These programs will teach you what you would need to get into quant finance. Also the concepts that you say don't make sense to you will make sense to you then so don't worry man just take care of your undergrad. Finally, I'm not sure Maelo knows much about MFE also I think a lot of the readers on this website are in Europe so they are probably are not that familiar with how undergrad CS works here in US.

Celi,My advice would be to listen to the senior members who have taken their precious time to tell what they think, and relax.I agree with Maelo and glijpman and in particular learning maths is highly recommended, ASAP.And the advice from DCFC is spot on, as usual.

QuoteFinally, I'm not sure Maelo knows much about MFE also I think a lot of the readers on this website are in Europe so they are probably are not that familiar with how undergrad CS works here in US.Dude, I'm American; living in US (PR actually), known American system pretty well as I have been a part-time professor for some time now (undergrad & some grad engineering courses as well as business administration); so, I can compare both groups of students.Hit my thread "A Proposed BSFE"...comment on it, I would like to improve it.trust me here...A typical Computer Science degree from an American business school most likely is not considered as a QUANT degree...too soft on hard math... By the same token, if the degree is from a math or engineering department, most of them are quant-like.See, problem here is that, (and as stupid as it might sound), a undergrad from math, engineering or science is better preparation to pursue an MFE (or Math Finance or for whatever name is called in that particular university..depending on school orientation, etc. etc. ) than an American business undergrad.

Ok celicara keeps saying that he intends on getting a CS degree, which by the way is quantitative, (they have to go through all the math that an engineering student goes through. If they don't then that program is probably not worth attending) so why is Maelo assuming that celicara is getting a business degree?? Did I miss something? Maelo did you check out the link to the Louisville's CS program that celcara posted? Probably not, if you did you would see that the program has all the math that an undergrad in Engineering would get (I did and since I'm from an engineering background, I can tell you that it does cover all the required math from an engineering bg).Now Celicara, I am not sure why you want to pursue CS in louisville, as there are lots of other schools better at teaching CS than Louisville (but I am not aware of the Louisville program also so can't really say much about that). If it is because it is easy to get into, then you should also think about schools such as Purdue Univ. (West Lafayette), as it is easy to get into (in my opinion) as an undergrad but difficult to graduate from it. It is one of major research hubs for CS and engineering in general, (especially in the area of Security, thanks to Gene Spafford)Regardless of where you go and your major, just make sure that you take the following math classes: Calc. I, II, III; Linear Algebra; Differential Equations; Probability (with calculus) and that should prepare you for the MFE math. You can also verify this by checking out the requirements for the MFE program.

sri-boyo:I am not assuming anything. Have your read my post before your rampage, I said " typical Computer Science degree from an American business school most likely is not considered as a QUANT degree...too soft on hard math... By the same token, if the degree is from a math or engineering department, most of them are quant-like."Have you read the same link that you are saying I did not check (which I didn't, BTW) you would have found the link is to an Engineering school, ergo, you are proving my point. BTW, CECS = COMPUTER ENGINEERING & COMPUTER SCIENCE, so I did not have to check anything to actually know it was an engineering school.However, Mr. Celi-dude comes from a business school, since I do not him/her....he might be the guy with the highest IQ ever BUT, bear in mind that my point is that undergrad American business schools are much much easier than hard sciences/math/engineering... even accounting is way much easier than any hard science...I was pointing to that fact, so Mr. celi-dude was duly warned that party is over, say hello to the books.Sometimes, when people ACTUALLY read before talking so they know what they are talking about, life becomes much, much pleasant. don't you think?

OH BTW,,if you care to take a look on my BELLISIMO, thread (which nobody wants to see ) the coursework is a mix of courses from different departments: some from industrial engineering, some from electrical engineering, others coming from..surprise , computer engineering and yet some others coming from straight business department.The fact that I have taught courses in both faculties in a few hundreds universities at undergrad and graduate levels might have helped to talk with some authority (not much, but some ) about the level of difficulty for both set of students...Take for example a course I have taught a few times such as probabilty & statistics; in business schools it is an "universal" pre-requisite at the MBA level...then, take any 2 students taking the course, one coming from business, the other from engineering...You won't believe the variabilty in knowledge the business student could have..some (even when asked what grade they got..lots of them said "A".. BUT they lack mastering of the subject at the most basic level..others have much better understanding yet...)...compare that with engineering, even C students have much more mastering of the subject that the best of the business guys..also the engineering guys would typically have much much less variability in their knowledge base.The gap is there...I am not just talking BS.M

Thanks again for the insightful responses, I thought this thread was going to go down in flames (if you guys keep bickering it just might ).But I guess I'll clear up the whole business school thing before you go on any more tangents about it. I'm not nor was I in business school. I'm actually in community college right now fixing mistakes I made 3 years ago. That's where my accounting major was, I intended to transfer to UofL, it was cheaper that way. I screwed around a lot and it took me a while to finally grow up but here I am. Not proud of having to take classes over because of dropping out, nor am I happy about retaking prerequisites (I.E.- no courses dealing with my major), or going to such a shitty school. But like I said, that's where I am now. I'll be going to UofL since I live a mile away from it, and technically it's the Speed Engineering school that I'll be getting my CECS degree from. After that I'll be moving to chicago for the MFE or whatever grad schooling I decide on, as Chicago is ultimately where I want to end up. (things could change, but right now it's what I'd like to happen) I didn't want to post all of this because I didn't think I would be taken seriously, but I wasn't taken seriously to begin with heh so I guess it's all good. I'm honestly not worried about the school work or how "hard" it will be, if it wasn't a challenge then what would the point be? I'm not one of those idiots that goes to college as if it were job training, I firmly believe you shouldn't be in college unless you're there because you want to LEARN. So that's enough of my lengthy diatribe, hope that clears things up a bit. Thanks again for the responses guys.