Tomorrow I have a job interview – research analyst – automatic trading - at a NY Hedge Fund ( also a provider of automated trading platforms). My recruiter told me to avoid negotiating salary by all means, and to say that I am looking to enter the field for a long term perspective. My background is PhD physics (focus statistical / mathematical / computational physics). This is really a good opportunity for me.On the other hand, I am not desperate as I will always get a programming project. I live and work in the NYC area. The prevailing wage for a programmer in NYC is $45/hour.Another point is that it is better for a recruiter to place me with any salary that the employer is ready to pay and get his commission than not to place me and not get any commission at all. So I do not realistically see how anybody can negotiate a salary higher than the employer is willing to pay.Should I avoid negotiating salary as my recruiter advised me?Should I say that I expect at least the prevailing wage for a programmer?Please comment if you have FIRST HAND RELEVANT EXPERIENCE ONLYPlease NO GUESSING

Ahem, I like to think I have first hand experience, though it is of course many decades since I negotiated my first salary, but it was the highest in my year by a margin, and my college has the 3rd highest average income for it's alumni of any institution in Britain or Europe. Being a Pimp, I suspect I have some idea of what I am doing.I have also been educated in how to sell difficult to price things by two self-made billionaires, and both were very clear that you must sell the customer on the notion that it is valuable before you talk of price.Short version is that a Ford has a price sticker on the windscreen, a Morgan does not, even though some Fords sell for more than a Morgan.Thus you should not bring up money at all and certainly not until you have wowed them. Trust me, if you don't fit their spec, offering to work for 25% less won't help.As a HH it is a hard call whether to let newbies argue their own pay. On one hand you are supposed to be someone who is smart in the ways of handling money, so why can't you do your own ?So we go the other way because your utility function does not only include current cash flow but an NPV that is 30 years of variable dividends, and at P&D we aim for what we call a "soft landing".It is not enough for us to get you the job, but for them to have a warm fuzzy, not the sort of feeling you get after bare knuckle pay negotiations.I don't know which HH you are dealing with, but my sense is that he is protecting you from your own folly. Like him, I find it odd to feel "protective" towards someone who in the mid-late 20s may be old enough to have retired from commanding men in combat, but that's life.There is of course the chance that if you are dealing with the Green Lady, that she is trying to get you to take a job that is crap, but that is pretending to have long term value.In this context you should understand the difference between a signal and a utility function. Higher pay is a positive signal, but you must remove it wholly from evaluation of your utility.Do not for the love of Om say you won't work for less than a $45 programmer.That is bad on so many levels.First it show you to be "arrogant", it is hard to formally define this term, but like pornography we know it when we see it.Second, from the few details you have shared, you have underpriced yourself rather like Dr. Evil in Austin Powers because you have not understood your market. This is worse than arrogance because it says things about your ability to price things.Also, one does not equate a package of salary +bonus to a flat hourly rate, and at a HF you should be assuming that bonus is a non trivial % of your overall pay.To make it worse, you aren't a 45 per hour programmer, a statement I can make without seeing your CV. I'd be shocked if you were a competent client server developer, and a good C++ hacker can get more, so you might get a lot less or more.Also, yet another reason you aren't ready to discuss your pay is that you seem to be trying to talk yourself into the job many people are trying to get out of.I guess you can do s/w development, probably not that well, but you're a smart kid and in a few years you can get there.But you should be going for a quant job, and from what you say, that is where you are headed, and although there is substantial programming to be done, you really really do not want yourself labelled as a programmer, or even directly compared to one.Hell, you might get your wish, which ain't good at all.Bottom line, show you can do stuff, do not make the first move towards price, and stop talking about other jobs.

Yes, your recruiter is 100 % right. As well as DCFC. Don't ask about salary and working hours at all.

What's a problem in asking about the working hours? Of course if I have a job, then I want a better job.I need to know about the work conditions.Now, I work 9 to 5 and of course I have other things to dobeside my work duties.If I need to be there 24/7, then, well there are other jobs around And yes, I used to ask about the age + medical records =)as I do not like surprisesthanks for your comments

QuoteOriginally posted by: kusawhat's a problem in asking about the working hours?For the same reseon that on a first date you dont ask about the girl age

If you really value 9to5, then banking really ain't for you big time.You may have missed meteor's point. Asking about a girls history too early betrays a focus that does not serve your objectives well.Someone who talks too much about hours and money early in the conversation gives the impression that you genuinely are driven by them, and its possible that at this stage you genuinely believe you can be motivated that way.I@m the sort of pimp who tells people things they need to know, not just what they want to hear, and I believe you may be making a bad error if you think that bigger money will motivate you for very long.

In an ordered list of the people I would advise you to ask, HR is right at the bottom.a) They don't know.b) HR people are trained for this, and their natural reaction is to ask why this is so important to you ?c) They may actually tell you something untrue, out of the fact that they have no idea, and their desire to sell the job to you ?d) Many HFs don't really have an HR department.

QuoteOriginally posted by: kusaWhat's a problem in asking about the working hours? Of course if I have a job, then I want a better job.I need to know about the work conditions.Now, I work 9 to 5 and of course I have other things to dobeside my work duties.If I need to be there 24/7, then, well there are other jobs around And yes, I used to ask about the age + medical records =)as I do not like surprisesthanks for your commentsSounds like maybe you should just go for the programmer's job, frankly. We tend to want people who will get the job done even if it means working long hours.If you are getting hung up on an hourly salary figure, and on the working hours, and putting this behind concerns such as what you can do to make yourself valuable, then I don't think the world of finance s really you bag, man.

Sorry if I did not make things clear enough. Let me better explain what I wanted to ask about. I work as a programmer for a credit card transaction processing company, now. I work long hours at my present job as well, when needed, until things are done. I usually never ask about money or working hours during the interview. I do not know what the rules of the game are in the investment banking. How can I avoid answering a strait question about the salary?Imagine the conversation.They: What is your current salary? I: $XX,XXXThey: OK. What is the salary that you would like to have? I: It is a long term career opportunity and the possibility of doing what I like and can do the best that I value in this job.They: Good. Do you have any number in mind? I: It is an opportunity for me to do the kind of job that I like.They: Can you give us any number? I: I open to negotiation. They: Well. Give us a starting point? I: ?Should I tell that I would prefer to let my recruiter negotiate the salary?Thanks

Ah, now that is a good point, if they ask what you want, then you need a number.A good response is "I expect to be paid on what I contribute so to give a salary figure, perhaps you could explain how bonuses work here".As a freebie, based upon the little you've told us about you, I'd guess base of $120K first moment 10

Thanks a lot for your valuable time and expertise. I got what I needed.

QuoteOriginally posted by: kusaShould I avoid negotiating salary as my recruiter advised me?Salary negotiations should only happen near the end of the process. They don't know enough about you, and you don't know enough about them to start talking numbers. Same with working hours, there's no point in asking about this at the start of the interview, you should only bring this up as a concern after they've decided that they like you and are about to offer you a job.At the start of the process, the employer holds the cards. They can figure out that they don't like you and drop you early. At the end of the process, you hold the cards. You could have more than one near-offer, and the employer has already sunk a large amount of time into you.Also, let the recruiter do all of the talking about salary. They have experience in these sorts of things, and they can be a bit more obnoxious than you can without harming your relationship with your employer. One bit of advice. Employers are much more flexible about negotiating with signing bonuses than with salary since that is a one time thing.QuoteShould I say that I expect at least the prevailing wage for a programmer?If they try to get you to quote a number, this is the standard way of deflecting the question. Otherwise, it is assumed. The other thing is that, for the first round, the people who will be interviewing you are likely people at the same level as you, and they won't have any authority to negotiate salary and they don't want to know what you are making anyway. It's only after you get through to the end of the process that you'll be talking to people senior enough to negotiate salary.QuoteAnother point is that it is better for a recruiter to place me with any salary that the employer is ready to pay and get his commission than not to place me and not get any commission at all. So I do not realistically see how anybody can negotiate a salary higher than the employer is willing to pay.But if the recruiter negotiates too low a salary, then you say no and get another job offer. Also the recruiter is likely to be trying to place you at multiple places, and if an employer lowballs you, then the recruiter has an incentive to put you with another one of his clients.

QuoteOriginally posted by: kusaI usually never ask about money or working hours during the interview. I do not know what the rules of the game are in the investment banking. How can I avoid answering a strait question about the salary?Reply with the truth. "I'm new to investment banking, and I'd like to leave that question to my recruiter who has more experience on these things than I do."